Write Around the Corner


Write Around the Corner-Sarah Warburton

On our season 4 premiere, we travel to Blacksburg to meet Sarah Warburton and discuss her debut crime fiction novel, Once Two Sisters.

AIRED: January 12, 2021 | 0:26:54


-♪ Every day every day Every day ♪

♪ Every day I write the book ♪


-Welcome, I'm Rose Martin,

and we are Write Around The Corner

in Blacksburg, Virginia, with a brand-new writer.

Sarah Warburton has her debut crime-fiction novel,

Once Two Sisters .

If you've ever been in a family with siblings,

I bet you're guessing that there's some kind of

controversy between these two sisters.

We'll find out all about the book.

A little about Sarah,

she loves people. She loves dogs,

and of course, she loves to knit.

And of course, she loves books.

Sarah, welcome to Write Around the Corner .

-Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

-So, you are the oldest of four sisters?

-I am. There is 12 years between me and my youngest sister.

-Oh, wow.

So, your parents are kind of like two families?

-I really felt like that. Or I-actually I would say

my younger sister had different parents than I did.

At least, that's what it felt like.

-Yeah. They do loosen up,

I think, don't they? -[Sarah] They do.

-I think they do. They loosen up between them.

So was there sibling rivalry, basic sibling things?

Where did this Once Two Sisters idea,

or these opposite sisters come from?

-Well, that is exactly what my sisters want to know.

Um, I was thinking about how sisters define--

how a person defines themselves in relation to their siblings.

And sometimes, the person you grew up with

is not the person your sister turns out to be as an adult.

And so, I wanted to write a book

where two sisters, who are in a really bad relationship,

have got some space and distance

to realize that they're not who they thought they were.

-Mm. And we'll get to the book.

We'll get to the book in a few minutes,

but do you remember, growing up,

sibling kind of things with your sisters

or your parents getting involved in that?

-Oh, absolutely, absolutely. We, um, uh...

we fought a lot. We fought quickly.

And my young, my next oldest sister,

Rachel and I are the closest in age.

And we were the ones who used to stay up late talking.

We were the ones who used to fight over the curling iron

in the bathroom that-that was definitely...

And even relatively recently,

when my husband and I first started going out,

I would go home for, uh, you know,

Christmas or Thanksgiving.

He would say, "How's everything going?"

I'd say, "Oh, it's great.

Everybody's getting along, nobody's having any problems."

And he'd say, "You know, that means that you're the one

they're mad at." -Oh.

-[chuckles] Because otherwise, you'd be in the loop. [chuckles]

-So, when you come back, they're all talking about you?

-That would be, but you know, they're biggest fans and also,

I think sometimes the--

the people you measure yourself against.

-That's an interesting point, because we do, right?

-Mm-hm. -The family, we know

each other's stories.

No one else knows that story of what it was like

unless you grew up together-- -Exactly.

---even though you could be very, very different.

How about your own children?

Are they alike? Are they dissimilar?

-Um, I would say they're alike

in that they both are good readers.

They love stories, um... They both have got,

um, really active imaginations and interests.

But I would say they would also define themselves

as pretty different.

One of them is more extroverted.

Uh, one of them has more of an interest in history,

the other in art.

So, I think both. -Mm-hm.

Either writers, you see budding writers in either of them?

-They're both very talented writers,

but they're not right now showing an interest

in writing fiction. -[Rose] Mm-hm.

-Um, when they have had to for school,

I've been really impressed.

But, um, right now, I think both more readers than writers,

which I think I was at that age, too.

-Well, and I read that about you that you read so much,

and it was the fact that true or false,

you really did get punished by your parents

because of reading. -[laughs] That is--

[Rose] I've got to know the story. Okay.

---completely true. -[Rose] Okay.

-Gosh, it was six or seventh grade,

and, um, I don't remember much

about the first two or three grading periods

because all I was doing was reading.

Not school books, just whatever I wanted to read.

I read under my desk. I read in the hallway.

If there was homework, maybe I did it,

maybe I lost it.

So, my grades were abysmal,

and my parents put me on library restriction.

-Seriously, library restriction--

-[Sarah] They did. ---was the punishment.

[chuckles] -The teacher was horrified.

She was like, she can't even go in.

They were like, no,

and don't you let her friends check out books for her.

-Yeah. -[both laughing]

[Rose] And how did that work out?

-I made honor roll next semester.

-Yeah. -It's like, okay,

now I'm motivated. [laughs]

-That is a great story.

When parents think about unconventional ways

to get their point across, right?

They did, because getting locked in your room with a book,

you'd have been like, thank you.

-Exactly. -[Rose] That is, this is

the best thing ever, um, hm.

How about your parents, either of them writers?

-Um, actually no.

Um, both really big readers. -[Rose] Uh-huh.

- And that's been the big gifts, you know,

at Father's Day, Mother's Day, Christmas.

We actually, now when we get together,

we all bring stacks of books and we do a big swap.

-[Rose] Mm. -Uh, everybody's a reader,

but, um, no, no other fiction writers.

-Well, and you're also quite a knitter.

So-- -I am.

-I was looking at some of the pictures on your blog,

knitting cardigans and socks in really complex patterns.

And I see you knitting there right now.

So, for you, are presents...

normally people can expect books and something knitted?

-Absolutely. In fact, that's been a lovely thing

about having so many nieces and nephews

is smaller things

are faster to knit-- -Right.

-And they look really cute on, so.

-That's great. How long have you been knitting?

-Uh, I've been knitting for 17 years.

Um, when I was pregnant with my son,

I was working at a bookstore, and I was put on bed rest.

Um, and it was the only time in my life

I have not felt like reading.

I don't know if it was the hormones or...

so I was sitting there and nothing to do,

and I taught myself to knit.

And I found it was great with kids because again,

when I'm reading, I might not hear what people are saying,

I-I don't know what's going on,

and that is not great when you have toddlers.

But for knitting, I can knit and have a conversation,

and see where they are and keep an eye on them,

and still feel like I'm making something.


Well, so for someone who's not a knitter like me,

how do you knit and read?

-[chuckles] Well, I find the best way for me

is with an E-book,

because I would be doing just like I'm doing now,

and I can turn the pages with just-just my little finger.

-Oh so, you've got a system down,

a little finger swap-- -I do.

---and you're knitting and on your way.

-My grandmother used to use of bookstand.

But for me, I-I think I read-read too fast,

and I would get impatient with putting it down

and turning the page and tucking it back under.

But E-books have been, it's a whole new world.

-Well, and not only just E-books being a new world,

but you kind of came into this with your debut novel.

And joining, even though you had a history

of writing lots of articles

and have been published for articles that you've written,

this first foray into crime fiction,

what was it like once you got the book finished

and you had that daunting,

and maybe "daunting" is the wrong word,

but to find an agent and to find a publisher,

and what was that like?

-Well, um, I did have some fear.

Um, I have actually written two previous books

that are not published.

The first one I signed with an agent,

and it was on submission,

and it didn't get picked up by a publisher.

And my agent said,

"Oh, write a-- write another book."

And I did.

And she had rethought her life choices.

And I didn't have an agent or a publisher.

-Mm. -So, when I wrote

this third book, um, I was like,

"Okay, I feel like I'm starting from square one."

But actually, I wasn't. I mean, I knew what to do.

I knew how to pitch. I knew where agents are.

And so, I did.

I went to a writing conference in Carrol-- North Carolina,

and that's where I actually signed with,

um, Melissa Jeglinski, my agent from The Knight Agency.

-Mm-hm. Well, and I love the one story I read

that, um, you were out

busy doing things. -[Sarah] Mm-hm.

-And you had left your phone in the car, and--

-Yes. [chuckles] -Right? Let's share that story.

-That is, I was actually out with the newcomers' club.

We were, we're doing a little excursion to Salem

to check out a new knit shop and have lunch,

and I brought my daughter with me.

And I left the phone in the car for lunch.

I'm like, this is just time to just be with friends.

I come back to the car,

and I have a message from my agent. And my...

[chuckles] I'm always the, the bad news bear.

My first thought is, um, "Oh, no, nobody wants my book."

Well, I can't check it, because if it's bad news,

I still have to drive back from Salem.

And I promised my daughter that we would stop by

and get her something for back to school,

and something for Michael.

So, we get to Christiansburg. When she goes into the--

the art supply store and I call my agent back.

And in fact, it's-it's an offer from a publisher.

It's good news. -[Rose] Mm.

-[Sarah] And it was just-- -I bet that...

what was that moment like?

-I, I was the happiest person in the lobby of an art store ever.

I just couldn't... it was such a huge weight.

And it was a period of... it was definitely a period

where I almost couldn't even believe it.

It was just... I've always wanted to have a book.

And I think as a reader, you-you dream of being read,

of having people read your story,

and feel the way that you feel

when you've loved something.

-And what about when the box came,

and you opened it up for the first time,

and you saw the cover and you saw the title

and you saw your name there?

-[laughing] I did carry it around with me for a little bit.

That was... Jim was like,

are you gonna put that down?

I'm like, I don't think I am gonna put it down. [laughs]

There were just a few copies this time

because of the-the pandemic.

So, I was able to do a giveaway, which is really wonderful.

And, um, I did send a copy to my sisters,

and they are mailing it around

much as they do with any book that we really like.

-And I bet they all know what's coming for Christmas.

-[Sarah] Yeah, exactly. -Right?

Everyone's getting that in.

And something you'll have to figure out

what-what knitting companion's going to go with it.

-I think so. -When um,

I think about your process,

do you have a formal morning, afternoon, night,

a word-count per day? Do you outline?

How do you plan a book?

-Um, well, I do start with-with an idea.

Um, and actually I-I'm getting better at having

a more fleshed-out idea.

So, I still wouldn't call it a formal outline.

And then I'm a big believer

in getting the whole first draft done,

um, as quickly as possible.

Um, for the one I'm working on now,

I did about a thousand words a day until,

until I felt the story was finished.

And with this one,

I had been really clear about the first chapter.

And when it got to the point where I'm like,

"Okay, I really need to finish it up

and figure out what I want to happen at the end,"

I actually did a writer's retreat

with some of my buddies in Texas,

and I just, over the course of about four days,

fleshed out the end of the story,

and then you could start revising, which...

I really like revising. -Do you?

-I do. -We'll get to that in a second.

How valuable is it to have those writing buddies

or that circle of people because I think it'd be

kind of vulnerable to pass your baby off,

and then-then think, "Oh, I don't know if they like it,

or they don't like it." But, what's the value in it?

-It's crucial for me.

In fact, when I was first thinking

that writing was something I wanted to do,

I was, I started by going to hear authors speak.

And I heard Dennis Lehane and I was a big fan,

and I asked a question.

I said, "Well, what would you advise somebody

who is not at the point of looking for an agent

or a publisher, and is just starting out?"

And he said, "I would advise finding a writing group."

He said, "Some people are going to love what you write,

and some people are going to hate it,

and somewhere in the middle, you're going to find the--

the pieces that help you bring your work

to what you want it to be."

Because I think, at least when I'm writing,

it's almost like waking up from a dream.

And I can't always tell if what I've conveyed

is what I was going for.

-Oh, good point.

-And so, and I think too, writing can feel so solitary,

you feel like you don't know any other writers.

[Rose] Mm-hm.

-But if you build yourself a community,

you're like, "Oh, everybody's writing.

Everybody is critiquing and revising."

-I didn't know there were so many like me.


If I fall behind, they're like, "Hey, where are your pages?"

[chuckles] -[Rose] Oh.

A little accountability in there?

-It is. It is. [Rose] Hm.

So, you mentioned that you love the revising?

Why is that part?

-I'm always confident when I'm revising

that I'm making it better.

I feel like often in my first draft,

I have this great idea.

And, my, sometimes I am not sure that what I'm writing

is as great as the idea was,

and I think that sometimes slows people down.

They-they look at their first draft,

and they think this doesn't look like a published book.

But that's why it's a first draft.

-Mm-hm. Sure. That makes sense.

So, when you were putting together the first draft

of Once Two Sisters,

and, um, Carol and I both absolutely loved it.

It was-- it was a great book.

And I think reflecting on your own families,

you think, you know, in a way that's true,

we go through these things that you never know if,

um, if they're really the best of friends,

if they're kind of related by blood

so they have to like each other.

But in the case of the two characters here,

Zoe and her sister, Ava,

there was-- there was a conflict from early on.


-And I thought it was really interesting

that you use Ava as a published writer.

-[chuckling] Yeah. -Right?

And yet, her stories came from her sister,

and I'm thinking, "Oh, what an interesting take on that."

How did that idea come about?

-Well, I actually thought it would be really,

I-I love writing about sisters.

My first published short story was also about sisters,

although they were not at odds this-this way.

And so, I knew I wanted to write something

about that relationship.

And I had thought how much fun it would be

to start from the perspective of the younger sister

because I think there's a lot of fear

when you're writing about a relationship

that you have in your life.

People think, "Well, which of your sisters is the good one?

And which is the bad one? And who is it based on?"

And I'm like, but if I'm writing first person

from the younger sister,

and that is something I am not, I will never be.

Um, it was-- it was very freeing.

And it was fun to sort of think, if I were to write about them,

how angry would it make them?

How much would it ruin our relationship?

You know? -[Rose] Right.

-What-what would they want to say?

-And I think we'll get to the point

where your sisters are woven in here.

But I've got to say, that first paragraph,

the very first paragraph,

"I've been killed and incarcerated,

"tortured and seduced, stalked and obsessed.

"I've been the murderer and the victim,

"the detective and the fugitive,

"the hero and the villain.

"I've died over and over again in the swamps of Louisiana,

"on the streets of Chicago,

"in a small suburban town where nothing ever happens.

"I've been a housewife, a call girl,

"a forensic anthropologist,

"a secretary, an assassin, a nun.

"And whether I'm an angel, a demon, innocent or damned,

only one person is to blame. My sister, Ava Hallett."

I read that and I'm like, "What?"

[Sarah laughs]

And I read it back again because it does.

It grabs you from the minute that you open it up.

So, congratulations. -Thank you.

-And crime fiction? Is that a new kind of genre

for you to, uh, to wade around in?

-Um, well, it's something I've always loved reading.

Uh, my first two, the unpublished novels

and maybe always unpublished, we'll just see about that,

but they are, um, more police procedurals.

-[Rose] Mm-hm. -So, they're more traditional

town and gown, you know.

With-with this, I thought I want to do something

that plays around with just relationships,

and it took me into this psychological thriller category.

And I love it.

-Well, and as the story unfolds,

the fact that they have such a contentious relationship.

Um, early on, you kind of get the idea

where Zoe's coming from, right? -Mm-hm.

-Because without...

and the readers will know as soon as they open it,

she's living somewhere else. -Yeah.

-Under an assumed identity. Why was that important?

-Um, I really wanted this to be a character

who we think has got, that she's got grievances,

but we're not sure if we believe...

we're not sure if we believe her completely,

that we think maybe she is overreacting.

-I get that. -You think it's very extreme.

-Yeah. Yeah. -And so, I, yeah.

[Rose] Could her sister really have been that bad, you know?

-Exactly. I think--

-That she had to go to those lengths. Yeah.

-I think it was important to-to establish

how strongly she felt, but also have us be like...

yes, but and, you know, I...

Now they'll see this,

but anyone with a younger sibling

will sooner or later be like, it's always about the drama.

[both chuckling]

And I can see any younger sibling

saying about their older sis-sibling.

[Rose] Yeah. They're bossy. They're always abusing me.

-They're always controlling. -Yeah, right? Exactly.

That's true, and that relationship,

you beautifully, you know, it made them separate,

but yet, still connected.

So, you knew that there was something there,

whether-whether Zoe had been exaggerating or not.


-And then Ava, being highly successful in the book world,

with the-the stories based on Zoe's life.

That was an interesting twist, too.

-Mm. Well, I think it's one of those things

where even if you think you are not invested

in your sibling's relationship or even if you think you're not,

that sometimes there's something you just can't let go.

And I think for Ava, particularly, it was this idea

of who's the person that maybe she's all

tangled up with emotionally.

Who's the person she knows best in all the world?

-Yeah. -And that kind of

feeding this creative, so you do.

You wonder how much is deliberate,

and how much is her creative process.

And how much is driving Zoe crazy

just a bonus, you know? -[Rose] Mm-hm.

Well, and then you introduce us to her parents.

-Yes. -[Rose] Who are probably the...

this dysfunction fa-- dysfunctional family,

they could be the poster child for that, right?

But yet, there's-there's subtle clues about who they are,

what they do, and what they believe in,

but them being so distant in a way,

but yet, the girls are craving, you can tell in a way,

for a closeness. -Yes.

[Rose] That's a really interesting dynamic

that you were able to put together in the story.

-Thank you. And I have to say,

I was very fortunate that my parents are not the--

-Good idea to get that out there right now. Right.

-[chuckling] Let me just say, not the basis for these parents,

um, that, you know, they have really made an effort

throughout the years to make sure that we were

in touch with each other, that we come home,

that we spend time together, that we communicate.

And I do think I've seen other families

where I think there's an assumption

that that sort of thing happens naturally.

But sometimes, it doesn't.

Sometimes you really do have to encourage closeness

between siblings,

and encourage people to come home

because people do grow up and grow apart.

-Yeah, well, and even just being so different

because isn't that true?

Your parents get you to be independent.

-[Sarah] Mm-hm. -But then they wonder,

would you even be friends if you're not related?

-Yeah. -[Rose] You know, because

you're also very different.

Well, so then, you know, the, as the story goes,

Zoe's got to step up to be a sister

and show some compassion and love and it--

just as we're kind of wondering if Zoe was exaggerating.

My thought was when Ava goes missing.


-We're all kind of wondering, is Zoe going to do anything?

Or is Ava really pulling a stunt?

-Yeah, well, and honestly, I have to give the credit here.

I did, I readGone Girl , which I do think

kind of changed the face of fiction a little bit.

And I thought, once you've read something like that,

if you were in Zoe's position,

I mean, maybe that would be your go-to thought.

You would think, "Okay, well, actually,

you know, this could be--

this could be an Agatha Christie style thing.

This could be, this totally reads like a publicity stunt"

if you're not thinking of your sister as somebody who's...

who's got the best intentions.

-And that's what draws you in, because you're like,

"Oh, I... just in case it is real,

I guess I should jump in and help her."

[Sarah chuckles]

I guess I should try to help her.

But then I love the fact though, you know,

you wove in as part of the-the crime fiction,

the, you know, the hacking of her emails,

and then she's got to leave Texas

and come back to Virginia.

And then there's that whole piece of,

you know, sometimes you don't tell the whole truth.

-Yes. -And so, boy, that dynamic

between her husband now and her step child

and those relationships, dynamic,

but yet I got the feeling where you were going.

-Oh, good. I'm so glad.

Yeah, there's a vulnerability, I think,

for being, um, a-a step parent or for loving a child

to who maybe you don't have the same claim

as a-as a birth parent.

And I think that that just upped the stakes even more

that suddenly she had people

who believed she was a better person

than she believed she was.

-Well, and she wanted to be perfect,

because she didn't want to go back to that life.

-[Sarah] Yeah. -You know, and I could imagine

at the one point where she's dealing with the PTA moms

and the other people, she's like,

"Oh, if anyone sees me, you know.

If anyone knows who I really am."

And so, then she just, she decided to expose herself,

and kind of jump in and do it,

knowing that what's facing her on the other side

is not going to be pleasant.

She didn't take the easy way out.

-Well, it's true. And I think in fiction,

and maybe in life, you can't...

you have to go to that place that scares you,

to that place where it's all the things

you don't want to look at.

-Yeah, and we're kind of wondering about that,

because there are twists and turns

all through the story that I'm wondering,

um, you know, whether it's Ava's, you know,

relationship with Glenn,

or it's her husband that had previously been with Zoe

a little bit, and thinking, wow...

There's some crazy dynamics here.


-Um, and then you bring us to her coming home,

and having to come face to face with her parents

who actually aren't all what they seem to be either.

-It's true. You know, and you'll-- this is another cliché,

people say, you know, you need a license to drive a car.

But anybody can be a parent, but I think it is true.

-[Rose] Yeah. -I think there are sometimes

people who are not, um, the stereotypical,

you know, nurturing, supportive,

and they're still parents.

And so, then I think, who they are would be,

I'm really glad that they are not my parents.

But uh, you know, uh, to an extent,

they're not people who can change.

But it doesn't mean they had no feelings.

So, trying to navigate that, how people are...

express these differences in their relationships

and how what you want somebody to be

and what they're capable of being

are not the same thing. -That's so true.

-Mm-hm. -Well, we'll let the readers

find out what happens with Ava and Zoe,

and how that all dynamic plays out for us.

Would you be willing to read a section for us?


-And set it up and tell me what you've chosen?

-Well, do you mind if I read that first paragraph again?

Or shall I jump ahead? [chuckling]

[Rose] Oh, no, whatever you want to read.

-Okay. I'll start us right at the beginning, I think.

[Rose] Okay.

-"I've been killed and incarcerated,

"tortured and seduced, stalked and obsessed.

"I've been the murderer and the victim,

"the detective and the fugitive, the hero and the villain.

"I've died over and over again,

"in the swamps of Louisiana,

"on the streets of Chicago,

"in a small suburban town where nothing ever happens.

"I've been a housewife, a call girl,

"a forensic anthropologist, a secretary,

"an assassin, a nun.

"And whether I'm angel or demon, innocent or damned,

"only one person is to blame.

"My sister, Ava Hallett.

"Everyone in America has read my story in her books,

"seen her on the talk show circuit,

"eating popcorn,

"while I weep and bleed on the silver screen.

"The only reason she doesn't have a television series

"is her apparent inability to write a series,

"one standalone bestseller after another,

"and I'm the common denominator.

"Ava is older than I am, and she laid claim to writing

"as casually as calling dibs on riding shotgun.

"And she didn't stop there.

"Every job, every hobby, every boyfriend or passion

"or private thought I've ever had,

"she's jammed into a novel.

"She takes my life and murders it,

"over and over again.

"I wish I were more Zen, a person who could let this go.

"I should have joined the Peace Corps

"or backpacked through Thailand.

"Without her, maybe I would have been ordinary,

"the kind of girl who goes to college in her hometown

"and marries the boy next door.

"Instead, I ditched everything.

"My life in Northern Virginia,

"my relationship with my dysfunctional family,

"and the girl I used to be.

"Because of Ava, I'm living over 1,500 miles away

"in the suburbs of Houston, under an assumed name.

"Now, I sit anonymous

"with two other moms, Bethany and Felicia,

"at the edge of a playground,

"pretending to watch all the kids

"going up and down the slides, and I feel as if

"my "happily ever after" days in Texas must be numbered.

"This happiness is too easy.

There's no way I can hold on to it."

-And she is in for a roller coaster of an adventure.

-[chuckling] But I--

-In for a roller coaster of an adventure.

-But I hope she finds happiness again.

-[Rose] Yes. - I hope that's... [chuckles]

-Yes. Yes. And we will not share

anything beyond what we've already done

because opening... that opening passage of the book

does set up so beautifully the entire story

and why they have that rivalry. -Yeah.

[Rose] You know why they're kind of butting heads a little bit

and why there's a little resentment, you know?

To, um, to what happens naturally with-with siblings,

maybe even, especially not even having your life

out in front of everybody.

-Yeah, there is. You get tangled up.

You can't leave have each other alone, and you can't, you know,

be together without fighting.

[Rose]So, this is your debut novel,

and it's-and it's wonderful.

What would you like your viewers or readers

who pick up this book to know about you

or to know about the story?

[Sarah]Um, I would say what I was looking to do

was write something that grabbed you,

took you, uh, straight through,

really got you to...

helped you get lost in a book, but left you feeling,

um, with a good feeling.

I think a lot of times,

you read one of these psychological thrillers,

and it's exciting.

And at the end, you think,

"But I didn't like any of the characters."

And I hope you find something to like

in each of these characters, that you wish them well.

-Hmm, that's a great point.

Well, we've certainly enjoyed the characters,

and certainly have enjoyed chatting with you

about the book, Once Two Sisters ,

and I can't wait to see what happens for you next, Sarah,

because I think there's going to be

probably many more books

and many places people can find you

on your website through your blog.

Thank you so much for having us here

to your beautiful home in-in Blacksburg.

I sure appreciate it.

-Thank you, Rose. It was a delight to talk to you.

[Rose] Special thanks to Sarah Warburton

for having us here at her home in Blacksburg.

And thanks to all of you for joining us.

Make sure to tell your friends about us.

And stay tuned, catch us online,

Sarah and I are going to be talking a little bit more

about this book and some specifics.

I'm Rose Martin, and I'll see you next time

Write Around The Corner .


-♪ Every day every day Every day every day every day ♪

♪ Every day I write the book ♪

♪ Every day every day Every day ♪

♪ Every day I write the book ♪

♪ Every day every day Every day ♪

♪ Every day I write the book ♪


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