Theater Talk


Harry Clarke, The Play

Playwright David Cale, director Leigh Silverman and actor Billy Crudup discuss Cale's riveting one-man play Harry Clarke. In it, Crudup gives a bravura performance as the complicated, charming and nefarious title character, along with all the other roles in Cale's sometimes disturbing, but always wildly entertaining production. Jason Zinoman of The New York Times co-hosts with Susan Haskins.

AIRED: April 09, 2018 | 0:27:39

>> HASKINS: Coming up on

"Theater Talk"...

David, you've written years of

these fantastic monologues

for yourself.

Why hand this magnificent

"Harry Clarke" over to

Billy Crudup?

>> CALE: It's too difficult

to perform.

[ Laughter ]

>> HASKINS: From New York City,

this is "Theater Talk."

I'm Susan Haskins.

And I am joined today by my

guest co-host, Jason Zinoman of

The New York Times,

critic and comedy columnist.


>> ZINOMAN: Good to be here.

That's right.

>> HASKINS: And we are here to

talk about the magnificent play

"Harry Clarke," now at

The Minetta Lane Theatre.

It was started at the

Vineyard Theatre.

It's been moved by Audible.

And here it is.

It is written by David Cale,

a monologuist, right?

Would you say?

>> CALE: Primarily, yeah.

>> HASKINS: For years creating

his own theatrical pieces of

one-person monologues.

>> CALE: Yeah.

>> HASKINS: It's directed by

Leigh Silverman, who last did

"Violet" -- well, not

last did "Violet."

I know you're working

all the time.

But you did "Violet."

You did the wonderful play

I'm blocking that had

Jayne Houdyshell in the chair.

>> SILVERMAN: "Well."

>> HASKINS: "Well."

[ Laughter ]


Jayne Houdyshell. Yes, yes.

>> HASKINS: And it stars

the great Billy Crudup,

who I first saw in

"Arcadia" way back in the day.

>> CRUDUP: Oh, wow.

>> HASKINS: And you have just

been killing it ever since.

>> CRUDUP: Thank you very much.

>> HASKINS: So, David, you've

written years of these fantastic

monologues for yourself.

Why hand this magnificent

"Harry Clarke"

over to Billy Crudup?

>> CALE: It's too difficult

to perform.

[ Laughter ]

You know, I felt...

I felt someone else

could do it better.

Could realize it, take it

further and make it deeper.

And it was very intuitive,

feeling this.

And I hadn't felt it with

any of the other shows.

But this one, I did,

and here we are.

>> HASKINS: And here we are.

>> CALE: Yeah.

>> CRUDUP: Did you feel that

when you were writing it

or when it was finished?

>> CALE: I performed it in

Pittsburgh for three

performances at the

Andy Warhol Museum.

>> HASKINS: Oh, you

did perform it?

>> CALE: Yeah.

But partly to feel out the

script and how it was gonna be

with people.

It was different to any of the

other shows that I'd done.

And it was written very

intuitively and very

instinctively, and I wasn't

quite sure what I had.

But I felt, at that moment --

I just felt this,

"I shouldn't be

performing this."

>> HASKINS: Tell those who have

not had the privilege of seeing

"Harry Clarke" what it's about.

>> SILVERMAN: "Harry Clarke"

is the story about a

man who is living

a somewhat complicated,

seemingly, potentially

double life, and kind of the

way that he's found himself in

New York, and how he's chosen

to get by.

And it's hard to talk about too

much, because there's a certain

amount of mystery to the


>> HASKINS: It's really a triple

life, isn't it, Billy?

>> CRUDUP: I think there is a

young person in there who has a

kind of fractured association

with his identity.

>> HASKINS: What's your

character's initial name?

>> CRUDUP: Philip Brugglestein.

And so this is a chapter in what

has been a book of him wrestling

with his identity.

And this one chapter involves a

sort of id character that has

been a part of his existence

that has never really had

an adult experience.

So it's kind of letting that

tough young kid

out into the world for a moment.

>> HASKINS: And have a

seemingly adult experience.

>> CRUDUP: Not seemingly.

I tell you, in this play, it's a

very adult experience.


>> HASKINS: Why did you write

about Philip Brugglestein

from Illinois?

>> CALE: I had some family

that were living in Illinois,

so I'd spend a little bit

of time there.

And I spent time also in --

I guess this did actually

influence the show.

I spent time in a

very small town where it was

quite distinctly

dangerously homophobic.

>> HASKINS: Mm-hmm.

>> CALE: So the idea of this

kind of kid with loose

sexuality -- could be this,

this, or all of the above --

it's like that alienation,

and that terror of --

Really, you just can't live

fully in a situation like that.

>> SILVERMAN: Well, and I think

that part of what makes the

piece so exciting is that

Philip himself is an unreliable

narrator to his life.

So that as you're listening to

him tell this story, and live in

the story in this way,

there comes a time, I think, for

the audience where they start to

feel like, "Oh. Oh, I see.

He doesn't know, even,

why he's doing the things

that he's doing."

So that everything about it

has an innocence to it,

which I think is part of

the fun of the night.

>> ZINOMAN: One thing that

struck me, this is a play about

people adopting other personas.


>> ZINOMAN: And in that shift,

it really happens without

an excess of self-examination.

It happens almost effortlessly.

And I wonder how

intentional that is,

and is that something that you

think happens much more common

than we otherwise think?

Like, is this a much more

ordinary story than it appears?

>> CRUDUP: For me it is.

I'll tell you, we're all sitting

here, socialized, in very

similar kind of clothing.

You know, we do this in explicit

and implicit ways all the time.

The ways that we try to navigate

our social place in the world

as, you know, social animals

is just a part of the

fabric of our thinking.

And some people, I think,

developmentally, when traumatic

things happen that make them

feel disassociated from their

own sense of self, any number of

things can happen to make them

think that the right way to fit

in is to pantomime a persona.

So I see that happening in the

world all the time.

This is an extraordinary

circumstance that I think

also just happens to be

entertaining, as well.

>> ZINOMAN: You're saying that,

in our normal day,

we're always sort of

putting on masks, adjusting our

personas in subtle ways.

And that made me think,

in this show -- am I

thinking about it wrong?

Is Harry Clarke this kind of

clothes that this guy puts on

and takes off,

or is it something that's

essential about who he is?

Like, is this whole idea about

who you really are different,

considering what you're saying

about how much we're always


>> CALE: Well, it's like --

I mean, this is a

dramatic example.

But like we were talking about

Dame Edna Everage

and Barry Humphries.

Like, is Edna much freer

and much ruder than Barry?

>> HASKINS: Oh, that's an

interesting comparison.

>> CALE: You know, it's like

there's an element of --

I mean, I don't know.

I don't know Barry Humphries.

But I do love Edna Everage.

>> HASKINS: But did you ever see

the crass politician he does?

>> CALE: Yes, I did.

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

I forgot about that.

I mean, I know, like, as a

child, I had this little

character that I would do,

that I was much funnier as this

character than I was, and it

was kind of freed up, and I

would be rude with it.

So, I mean, I know what


I've had some experience of

having a little alter-ego.

>> HASKINS: And you have that

in the play, that this character

as a child is doing the much

more engaging --

>> CALE: Oh, yeah.

He's doing the same

kind of thing.

>> HASKINS: He's doing

the same thing, yeah.

I was so intrigued while I

watched it, thinking of

you writing this, developing

this, and it's so comp--

How many voices are you doing?

>> CRUDUP: I'm not sure.


>> CRUDUP: Okay. 19.

>> CALE: 19.

>> CRUDUP: Sometimes I do fewer.

[ Laughter ]

Sometimes I do more.

You never know exactly

what's going to happen.


I invented one last night.



[ Laughter ]

>> CRUDUP: And then somebody got

a whole new -- the manager

at the restaurant got

a whole new voice.

>> ZINOMAN: You have an answer

to that -- 19 -- and you say

you don't know.

Do you have them all

mapped out in the script?

>> CALE: Oh, we had to count

them out at one point.

We were asked how many

characters Billy was playing,

and it's 19.

>> CRUDUP: Some of them are,

you know, my attempt

to fully manifest and have it,

and others are my attempt to

interpret by way of one of the

other storytellers.

So, you know, Philip may just

give you a brief sketch of this

one character, doesn't really go

into detail about who the woman

who serves the drink on the

beach is, you know, or I don't

try to really embody her for the

one sentence that she has.

But she's probably included

in the 19 characters.

As opposed to somebody like

Ruth or Stephanie or Mark,

that I really try to inhabit.

>> ZINOMAN: I wonder if you

could talk a little bit

about accents.

'Cause there's a lot of

different shades of accents,

at least to my ear.

And how did you think about --

And also there's the question of

a good accent or a bad accent,

and how that plays into


>> CRUDUP: Well,

I make every attempt to be

as authentic as I can,

with a point of view about who

Philip is, where he's from,

what he's interested in.

Like, who he's interested in

pantomiming, because obviously

he's from Illinois, and the

people that he's pantomiming, or

trying to mimic, rather,

would have been TV stars,

would have been movie stars.

Which are the stars that he was

interested in, and which version

of them could he do?

So part of our rehearsal at the

beginning was trying to figure

out, "Okay, where does a natural

Philip kind of fit in?"

And it may not be the immaculate

English accent that he thinks he

has, but it will be something

authentic for Philip, for his

creation and his whole journey.

And then there's the character

of Harry, which is another

fictional creation.

And part of that accent is also

about attitude.

And so there is the intention to

be brash and open and


And I have to say,

part of my journey has been less

about being sound-perfect

throughout the entire thing,

with all of my focus on that, as

opposed to making an earnest

effort to understand the point

of view we're coming from,

and then to sell it as the

characters' themselves, since

nobody is really from England.

>> HASKINS: Yeah, and we don't

know what's perfect.

>> HASKINS: But, David, was --

>> CRUDUP: I asked him to change

the line at the beginning,

by the way.

>> HASKINS: Which one?

>> CALE: Yeah.

>> ZINOMAN: Which one is that?

>> CRUDUP: The opening line is,

"I could always do an immaculate

English accent."

>> ZINOMAN: But why'd you ask

him to change that?

>> CRUDUP: Well,

because I can't always.

Sometimes my accent

is pretty good.

But, you know, sometimes you're

in the middle of the show --

>> SILVERMAN: But I can just

say, part of the athletic,

unbelievable performance that

Billy's giving is that sometimes

within the course of a sentence,

he's three our four

different people.

Sometimes that spans between

gender, age, and accent.

So it's not just accent.

And at any given time --

I mean, this isn't true

throughout, but certainly there

are just moments that are

completely virutosic, because he

starts out as Philip.

He then does a little bit of

Harry, and then transforms into

somebody else altogether.

And that sharp turn,

that nimbleness was so

difficult, I think, to achieve.

So it's so much more than, like,

accent work, I want to say,

which is that it's also

physicality, it's intention,

it's clarity of purpose for all

of the characters he's playing.

And the journey, just even in

one sentence -- forget in an

hour and 20 minutes of having to

do that constantly throughout --

it's quite muscular.

>> HASKINS: Who came on board


Did you, Leigh,

or did you, Billy?

In this production?

And then, David and Leigh,

what made you know Billy

was the one to do it?

>> SILVERMAN: Well, come on.

[ Laughter ]

>> HASKINS: He's a wonderful

actor, but I don't know you.

>> CRUDUP: I'm with you.

[ Laughter ]

>> HASKINS: What?

>> CRUDUP: I said,

"I'm with you."

I got the call, and I was like,

"What? Why? Why?"

>> HASKINS: When did you say,

"Oh, we'll get Billy Crudup"?

I mean, where did that

come from?

>> SILVERMAN: It came together

very quickly.

David called me in, like,

the end of July, I think.

>> CALE: Yeah.

>> SILVERMAN: And the whole

thing really just came together

in the most incredible,

quick, quick way.

And the first person that we

talked about was Billy, and --

>> HASKINS: But why did he

come to your mind?

You know, of all the actors --

I mean, maybe you were friends

with him, maybe Doug Abel at

The Vineyard said Billy Crudup?

You see? But...

>> CRUDUP: My height.

[ Laughter ]

I was the right height.

>> CALE: I mean, Doug...

>> HASKINS: Doug.

>> CALE: Doug brought me in to

audition to play Liberace

for something.

Which I was mystified by.

And did an uncanny imitation

of Liberace.

[ Laughter ]

A fluke I couldn't repeat.

>> HASKINS: I'll bet you did.

>> CALE: But all I was --

We had just decided to do it,

and Doug said, "I'm looking into

Billy's availability."

And I was like, "He's it."

>> HASKINS: Right.

Because Doug Abel, who runs

The Vineyard Theatre, and is a

casting director, and who's a

brilliant guy, so I'm not

surprised that he didn't --

>> CRUDUP: That's also the first

place I ever did a play in

New York, was at

The Vineyard Theatre,

which was before "Arcadia."

It was a play by Chiori Miyagawa

called "America Dreaming,"

directed by Michael Mayer.

And so I have a lot of

romantic attachment to

The Vineyard.

And I also did an Adam Rapp play

there later, before that,

and my girlfriend at the

time was in a show there

for a long time.

So Doug Abel has been in my

close group of people that I've

really been grateful for and

admired for a long time.

So when he calls and says,

"Hey, this is a piece that I

think might be interesting" --

There's no way I would have read

a one-person show.

>> ZINOMAN: Have you done a

one-person show before?

>> CRUDUP: Noooo!


>> CRUDUP: No.

I've barely done any shows.


>> ZINOMAN: I mean, that's

a different form,

and you're someone who's

a real master of it.

Is there something particular

that you learned about that form

that you didn't know --

>> CRUDUP: It's a horrible idea.

[ Laughter ]

It wrecks your nervous system.

You're a shadow of your

former self.

Actually, it has been an

extraordinary learning

experience, and I've gotten

the great gift of having

David's support, having

performed it, and Leigh's

support having directed them,


it can be quite intimidating.

You can rehearse all you want,

but at a certain point, your

brain can't take in any more.

And then there's a deadline to

when the show is going to be in

front of people, and it doesn't

matter whether or not you're

fully prepared for that preview.

It's gonna come, and you're

gonna have to manage it.

And so they were really expert

at helping me navigate the

pressure of not just performing

this story that we rehearsed

and described and decided

to make our night of theater,

but dealing with

being out there alone.

>> ZINOMAN: But what about --

and this is what I talked to you

about before.

When you're in a solo show,

there is this question you don't

have, necessarily, in an

ensemble, which is,

who are you talking to?

What's your relationship

with the audience?

>> CRUDUP: The big portion of

our discussion about this piece.

I mean, I don't want to give you

an idea of precisely what we

settled on, because I think part

of the mystery of the piece, and

the experience of our night of

theater, is you're never

entirely sure if he's in the

room with your or you're in his

mind or where you are, exactly.

You get some indications from

the set, maybe.

But I think that makes for

something quite interesting.

But, that being said,

we had to have lots of

conversations for me

specifically, because that's

how I work as an actor.

I'm like, "Well, the last place

Philip Brugglestein is

is The Vineyard Theatre.

He is not at

The Vineyard Theatre, okay?

We know that.

So if he's not there,

and he's not talking

to the audience at

The Vineyard Theatre,

where is he and who is he

talking to and why?

>> HASKINS: But you're right

down there -- I saw you at the

Minetta Lane Theatre,

where you are now.

But you are such a fascinating

state of creating all these

characters, and yet you're

so close to us.

>> Well, you do a lot of things

as an actor, all the time,

to put up a fourth wall.

You know, we call it

a fourth wall.

You know, "These cameras aren't

here," when you're trying to do

a movie and behave as though

something is very simple,

and behavior that's just

gonna feel natural.

You've got 50 people working

around you.

So you're used to


That being said, you're not used

to compartmentalizing while

interacting with the people

that you're trying to

compartmentalize yourself from.

>> HASKINS: Right.

>> CRUDUP: So that is a very

different kind of exercise,

and one that --

>> HASKINS: And you're

deceiving yourself.

>> CRUDUP: You have to.

>> SILVERMAN: You have to, yeah.

And it's also impossible

to rehearse.

>> CRUDUP: By the way, actors do

that all the time, anyway.

>> HASKINS: But you're deceiving

the other -- David --

>> CALE: Monologuists

never do it.

>> HASKINS: What's your answer

to that question?

I've seen you do so many

wonderful monologues.

But when you're up there,

where are you?

>> CALE: Like who

is the audience?

>> HASKINS: Yeah.

Who's the audience?

>> CRUDUP: [ Laughs ]

>> CALE: It's Billy Crudup.

[ Laughter ]

It's a sea of Billy Crudups.

>> CRUDUP: I'm very supportive,

by the way.

>> CALE: For me, the audience

is the audience, so it's --

>> CRUDUP: That's the answer

for a lot of monologuists.

It's true. They --

It's the experience of

expressing yourself in that

environment that you kind of go,

"All right, well, they're not

anyone specific."

>> CALE: You know, actually it's

not totally that with me.

I mean, there's some shows where

it is, and there's others where

it's in and out, and it's

actually more akin --

>> ZINOMAN: Wait. Why is the

audience -- we have a genuine

disagreement, so let's probe it.

>> CALE: Who is this audience?

>> ZINOMAN: Why is the audience

the audience in a solo show?

>> CALE: You know, I just don't

think about it.

I just want to communicate

something, and there's

people in the room, and we

call them the audience.

I don't know.

I've never watched a video of

myself, or I've never watched

myself on any form.

>> ZINOMAN: Mm-hmm.

>> CALE: I did an HBO special

in the '80s where they filmed

a monologue.

I've never watched it.

I just -- I like not knowing

what's going on.

>> ZINOMAN: But it seems so

essential, because this show,

one thing about "Harry Clarke"

is, he's incredibly seductive.

>> CALE: Yeah.

>> ZINOMAN: Right?

Is there something about the

fact there is this persona

that makes him so seductive?

He's so successfully seductive,

he's seducing somebody.

He's not by himself.

There's somebody else there

he's seducing.

Who he's talking to is not an

irrelevant point --

>> CRUDUP: I couldn't

agree more.

I'm just not gonna give you my

answer for who he's talking to.

But to David's point,

so, the reason we talk about who

you're talking about, as actors,

is intention.

The only reason any of us

open our mouths is because

we have an intention.

And whether it means you're

doing that at home alone and you

need to hear the thought come

out of your mouth and articulate

it, or whether or not you're

trying to explain to someone on

a talk show about how you're

acting, we always have


And that's one of the --

motivation is one of the primary

things that you use.

So, what I think David was

saying is, he has a motivation

when he writes this story.

It's to tell the story to


So it's implicit in a

monologuist's understanding

of the performance itself.

>> ZINOMAN: Right.

>> CRUDUP: That's the

motivation, is to speak to

a group of people.

Actors don't have that

kind of motivation.

We look for the other


We look for some kind --

Even some of the great

soliloquies and stuff,

they're meant to be, like,

mental explorations -- so an

opportunity for the audience to

overhear something

that's going on in their head.

>> SILVERMAN: Part of the event

in a solo show is,

the actor needs to be


The character, the story needs

to be different at the end

than it was at the beginning.

So the actual act of talking has

transformed the person.

It's not just the story itself

that's the event.

It's the act of telling the

story, an event has occurred.

And that is different than,

I think, a monologue or like a

Spalding Gray or somebody who

has a different sense of the

kind of story that they're

telling, where the point

of the evening is not the


but the story itself.

>> CALE: With my shows,

when I'm performing them,

they're still --

like the script for

"Harry Clarke,"

there's still scenes between


and then I lose the audience.

It's just me playing this person

and this person, à la "Harry."

But it's -- yeah.

That's all I'm gonna say.

>> SILVERMAN: Yeah, but I think

that there's theatricality to

it sometimes, and sometimes

there's not.

Like, sometimes the point of

Eric Bogosian and some of his

pieces -- he's not playing a

character, he's telling a story,

and that's a different

theatrical event than, I think,

what "Harry Clarke" is doing.

I guess what you're doing.

>> CRUDUP: It is a very specific

piece of writing, too, where the

points of view shift.

And so part of, I think, the

experience of rehearsing it was

us discovering what the three of

us thought this piece was.

>> CALE: Mm-hmm.

>> CRUDUP: What we thought this

event was gonna be.

And part of it was an

exploration in Philip -- Philip

trying to understand where he is

in his life.

>> HASKINS: Philip Brugglestein,

back in Illinois,

to remind everybody.

>> CRUDUP: And part of it was,

you as an audience get to

witness scenes erupt

in front of you.

And so there's a couple of

different theatrical devices

that are in play that I think

make for a very unique piece of


>> HASKINS: Stuff happens.

It's got violence. It's got sex.

It's got a lot going on.

It's go romance.

It's got deception.

>> ZINOMAN: Sade.


[ Laughter ]

>> ZINOMAN: Let's not forget


>> HASKINS: Why Sade?

>> CRUDUP: Gosh. Sade.

>> CALE: Because Sade is Sade.

[ Laughter ]

>> HASKINS: That she's an

important element in this plot.

>> CALE: Yes, she is.

>> SILVERMAN: I mean, I just

think part of what's so

interesting about the

conversation about what

the show is, is that you can't

actually --

We rehearsed the show,

but it's so hard, in a solo

show, because you actually don't

know what the scene partner is

until you do it

in front of them.

So you're trying to rehearse a

thing without knowing the full

picture of what it is.

And so the form sort of reveals

itself in performance.

It's not something that you can


And so there's this crazy thing

that happens, which is that

you're kind of building a thing,

but you can't actually see the

whole vessel until you're in

front of an audience.

And that makes for an incredibly

kind of challenging rehearsal

process, because you're trying

to sculpt an event that's not

gonna be made clear.

It's not gonna be legible to any

of us until Billy gets out

and does it in front of an


And then the shape of it

sort of remains in tact night to

night, but the character that

he's acting opposite changes

radically night to night.

So, also, his ability to

navigate that, to let the sort

of same event happen night

after night, no matter who

h e's acting opposite.

>> ZINOMAN: One thing that

struck me is that there are some

similarities between

the story of this play and

"Dear Evan Hansen."

And I don't want to go into --

Because I can see you guys don't

want spoilers.

But they both involve someone

who insinuates themselves in a

family, and they're involved in

some deception.

>> HASKINS: Deception.

>> ZINOMAN: And one thing that

struck me about

"Dear Evan Hansen" is,

I was surprised how much the

audience loved this character.

>> CALE: Yeah.

>> ZINOMAN: And forgave this

character every night.

Really, their reaction was

actually different than mine.

And you don't want to judge

them, but are you surprised

how the audience reacts to

"Harry Clarke"?

>> CRUDUP: I make sure that

they get an opportunity

to love him in the way that we

love him, and in the way that

the Schmidts love him.

That should be 100% sincere,

because that is an effort to try

to be in the world.

That is the thing that I think

he is really holding

deep in his soul, if he's got

one as a fictional creation.

It's that it is meant to be an

engagement in the world,

which ultimately, I think,

all of us relate to.

All the impediments in our lives

that keep us from doing the

things that we want to do, from

loving the people we want to

love, from being ambitious in

the way we want to be ambitious.

"Harry Clarke" says forget that.

Let's let our lives

lead us along

and go on for the ride.

So that, to me, I think is

probably attractive to

a lot of people.

>> CALE: And it was very

important for me that

"Harry" was enjoyable,

and the audience would

enjoy "Harry."

>> CRUDUP: It does make you feel

uncomfortable, too.

That's one of the things about

the show which I think is

exciting, is you're not

left with some sense of

resolution at the end.

It ends on kind of a minor key,

which I think is a very

humane treatment

of this kind of person.

>> HASKINS: He's enjoyable.

He's very loveable.

And it is a wonderful,

brilliant play,

and an amazing performance

by you, Billy Crudup.

And quite a job by you,

Leigh Silverman.

>> SILVERMAN: Thank you.

>> HASKINS: David Cale,

congratulations on this

wonderful play.

At the Minetta Lane Theatre,

it is Audible presenting a

Vineyard Theatre Production now

at the Minetta Lane.

And you're leaving May 13th,

I'm sorry to say, but this is

available on Audible, and really

would be quite something

extraordinary to listen to

on Audible.

Yes, I think.

So, thank you so much.

"Harry Clarke." Get to see it.

Thank you, Jason Zinoman,

as always.

>> CRUDUP: Thank you.

>> CALE: Thank you.

>> SILVERMAN: Thanks.

>> HASKINS: Our thanks to the

Friends of "Theater Talk" for

their significant contribution

to this production.

>> ANNOUNCER: We welcome your

questions or comments

for "Theater Talk."

Thank you.


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