>> HASKINS: Coming up on

"Theater Talk"...

>> BILLY: ♪ On a night like

this, I start to wonder ♪

♪ What life is all about

>> JULIE: ♪ And I always say

two heads are better than one

to figure it out ♪

♪

♪

♪

♪

>> HASKINS: From New York City,

this is "Theater Talk."

I'm Susan Haskins.

And here with me is my guest

co-host, Jesse Green,

Co-Chief Theater Critic

ofThe New York Times.

And we are so delighted to be

focusing right now on the

wonderful revival of

Rodgers and Hammerstein's

"Carousel" at the

Imperial Theatre.

We are joined by

Billy Bigelow -- Joshua Henry,

Jessie Mueller -- Julie Jordan.

Both Tony nominees this season.

And Andy Einhorn, the

Musical Supervisor of the

production.

>> GREEN: And we're clearly at

the best piano bar in New York.

[ Laughter ]

So feel free to order

some drinks.

>> MUELLER: Yes.

Tip your waitstaff.

>> GREEN: We wanted to focus

today on the famous scene that

concludes with the most famous

song from the show,

"If I Loved You."

But we're not -- Spoiler alert.

We're probably not gonna focus

on the song so much itself as

the incredible construction of

this rather long scene.

Actually, how long is

the whole scene?

>> EINHORN: I think it's around

nine minutes.

>> GREEN: Wow.

>> EINHORN: It's quite a

monolithic piece of music.

I mean, it's Shakespearean in

its construction, as well as

just this sort of heft and

weight of how much time is given

to this particular

beat in the show.

>> GREEN: You say monolithic,

and yet one of the fascinating

things about the construction --

which you don't find a lot in

Rodgers' music.

Maybe in "South Pacific"

to some extent -- and in

Hammerstein's way of shaping the

scene, is that it is built

around lots of different cells,

musical and also emotional.

And we're gonna talk about and

sample some of each of those.

Where does it begin?

Where does this scene

actually start?

What is the setup?

What has just happened?

>> MUELLER: Two young mill

workers go out for a night on

the town, basically,

and we go to the carousel

that's visiting.

And we see the barker,

Billy Bigelow,

and we have a little

altercation with

the lady that owns the carousel.

She basically chases us out.

So this scene happens almost

directly after we've been chased

out of the woods by Mrs. Mullin.

All of a sudden, Billy shows up,

and he says, "All right,

let's hang out.

Which of you would

like to stay with me?"

>> GREEN: [ Laughs ]

>> HENRY: And Julie is the one

that emerges and decides that

she wants to stay.

>> HASKINS: And we know that,

"Uh-oh. This is trouble."

>> MUELLER: Well, you've just

lost your job -- spoiler alert.

>> HENRY: I've just lost my job.

>> MUELLER: I basically

lost my job 'cause I said

I'm gonna stay.

>> HASKINS: Yeah.

>> MUELLER: And at that time,

we talk about it in the scene,

if I work at this mill, I also

live there in the boarding

house, so if I don't get home by

the time the doors are closed,

I'm out of a job.

I'm out of a place to live.

So the stakes were

very high for everyone,

but also very exciting.

>> GREEN: So, the beginning is

kind of flirtatious.

>> MUELLER: Mm-hmm.

>> GREEN: Maybe I'm wrong,

but it feels like the initial

flirtation is coming from Billy.

At least in terms of the

dialogue.

I don't know what's going on

in terms of the emotions.

>> HENRY: Yeah.

I think Billy is "on the prowl,"

so to speak.

I mean, he's --

>> GREEN: Always.

>> HENRY: Yeah.

You know, he steps away

from the carousel.

And so, on a night like this,

we're seeing what we can

sort of get away with.

>> HASKINS: And don't you think

Billy's done this before,

whereas Julie Jordan has not?

>> HENRY: For sure. For sure.

>> HASKINS: Yeah.

>> GREEN: Well, so let's hear

the bit of music and the

introduction to this so-called

bench scene, in which

we hear the beginning of this

flirtation.

>> BILLY: Tell me somethin'.

>> JULIE: Hm?

>> BILLY: Ain't you

scared of me?

[ Music plays ]

I mean, after what the cops said

about me taking money from

girls?

>> JULIE: No, I ain't scared.

>> BILLY: [ Scoffs ]

That your name? Julie.

Julie something.

>> JULIE: ♪ Julie Jordan

>> BILLY: [ Whistling ]

♪ You're a queer one,

Julie Jordan ♪

♪ Ain't you sorry that you

didn't run away? ♪

♪ You can still go

if you wanna ♪

>> JULIE: ♪ I reckon that

I care to choose to stay ♪

♪ You couldn't take my money

if I didn't have any ♪

♪ And I don't have a penny,

that's true ♪

♪ And if I did have money,

you couldn't take any ♪

♪ 'Cause you'd ask and I'd

give it to you ♪

>> BILLY: ♪ You're a queer one,

Julie Jordan ♪

♪ Ain't you ever have a feller

you give money to? ♪

>> JULIE: [ Chuckles ] No.

>> BILLY: ♪ Ain't you ever

had a feller at all? ♪

>> JULIE: No.

>> BILLY: ♪ Well,

you must've had a feller

you went walking with? ♪

>> JULIE: Yes.

>> BILLY: ♪ Where'd you walk?

>> JULIE: ♪ Nowhere special

I recall ♪

>> BILLY: ♪ In the woods?

>> JULIE: No.

>> BILLY: ♪ On a beach?

>> JULIE: No.

>> BILLY: ♪ Did you love him?

>> JULIE: No!

Never loved no one.

I told you that.

>> BILLY: [ Chuckles ]

You're a funny kid.

You want to go out on the town

and dance, maybe, or --

>> JULIE: No.

I have to be careful.

>> BILLY: Of what?

>> JULIE: My character.

Well [Sighs] you see,

I'm never going to marry.

♪ I'm never going to marry

♪ If I was going to marry

♪ I wouldn't have to be

such a stickler ♪

♪ But I'm never gonna marry,

and a girl who don't marry ♪

♪ Has got to be much more

"partickler" ♪

[ Laughter ]

>> HENRY: Bam.

>> GREEN: You know, let's start

at the beginning of that.

"You're a queer one,

Julie Jordan."

That's not the first time we've

heard that phrase musically or

lyrically in this show.

It was sung earlier

by another character.

>> MUELLER: Yeah, the character

Carrie Pipperidge.

So, Julie's best friend,

the two girls that are sort of

in the woods together,

being like, "What do we do?"

>> GREEN: So, that's one of the

motifs that we were talking

about that we hear, but that

section that you just sang has

three or four different cells

that will recur again in the

song.

Maybe, Andy, you can speak to

how Rodgers did the job of

fitting them together so that

they don't sound like 10

different things, but one thing.

>> EINHORN: Actually, I think

there was a real, definite

homage to the operetta tradition

in the construction of a lot of

the pieces in this show,

because where something like

"South Pacific" or

"Sound of Music," you saw a

definite 32-bar song structure,

and this is actually defying

that, especially in this intro.

And the geek, the musical geek

in me is so fascinated by this

very beginning of the section,

because, interestingly, he keeps

actually raising the tension

through these characters

flirting with one another

actually by raising the key.

So, actually, you have that

first key that they're sitting

in, G major, and then as each

one of them raise one another,

it ends up going up a half step,

until a certain point where --

What I love about Julie is she

keeps cadencing the phrases.

>> GREEN: Can you demonstrate

kind of what "cadencing" means?

>> EINHORN: Absolutely.

>> EINHORN: For instance,

when he sings

♪ You can still go,

[Rising pitch] if you wanna ♪

She sings, ♪ I reckon that

[Falling pitch] I care to choose

to stay ♪

>> GREEN: So she brings it back.

>> EINHORN: Putting a

button on it.

But it's a rather sort of

classical, almost Mozartean

tradition to say, "I'm gonna go

in [Plays chords] 2, 5, 1"

and put this button on it so

that it gives it a sense of

actually grounding so that she

can go on with her thought.

>> MUELLER: Mm-hmm.

>> GREEN: One of the other

things I love in this, while

we're getting all geeky-techy,

is, there's a wonderful kind of

worm-turn figure, a chromatic

thing that goes on that really

literally ratchets up the

tension on those lines like...

>> EINHORN: Yeah, when he sings,

♪ You're a queer one,

Julie Jordan ♪

♪ Ain't you ever had a feller

you give money to? ♪

>> MUELLER: "No." She goes down.

>> EINHORN: And I think what's

really interesting is it's that

sort of sinewy nature of really

getting under her skin.

>> MUELLER: Mm-hmm.

>> GREEN: And does the music

help you find what's going on

in that moment?

>> HENRY: It really forms the

flirtation there.

You know,

the real question there.

I mean, no one really wants to

give away their hand, you know.

>> MUELLER: Right, right.

>> HENRY: So,

what are you about?

And that chromatic question

in the music really informs

what I have to do.

>> EINHORN: I think it also ends

in a very fascinating way,

'cause once you've asked the

three questions, you say,

"In the woods? On a beach?

Did you love him?"

You get one more iteration,

which allows her to go to her

next beat by going

[Plays rising scale]

"Never loved no one.

I told you that."

So you're already

ready for the next beat.

So it's this very interplay

between sort of how the dialogue

and the music are coming in and

out of one another, and they're

also weaving together.

>> GREEN: We're gonna maybe skip

a little here.

There's one of the motifs coming

up, also heard earlier in the

show, brings us into the

question of, what would it be

like if you fell in love?

And I've always thought of this

as the sound of the loom.

>> EINHORN: It is.

>> MUELLER: That spinning,

that whirring.

>> EINHORN: That repetitive,

swirling figure.

>> GREEN: Can you...?

>> EINHORN: Sure.

>> GREEN: Favor us with it.

>> EINHORN: [ Playing

bright melody ]

It's this idea of this

sort of -- [ Music stops ]

It's musically painting

the sound of the loom.

>> GREEN: And can we hear what

Julie is singing?

>> MUELLER: The little section

that goes into the chirp.

>> EINHORN: Yes. Yeah.

[ Playing bright melody ]

>> JULIE: ♪ When I worked in the

mill, weavin' at the loom ♪

♪ I'd gaze absent-minded

at the roof ♪

♪ And half the time the

shuttle'd tangle in the

threads ♪

♪ And the warp would

get mixed with the woof ♪

♪ If I loved you

>> BILLY: But you don't.

>> MUELLER: And she says,

"No, I don't."

>> GREEN: So, we get the name of

the song...

[ Laughter ]

>> MUELLER: Right?

You set the idea up.

>> HENRY: What's happening in

the music.

>> GREEN: Then seem to pull back

from it.

>> MUELLER: Yeah.

>> GREEN: And then we get a

chorus.

>> MUELLER: The delight and the

trick is, for me, to sort of,

like, slip it in and not feel

like you're announcing a song.

>> GREEN: So let's hear that.

>> JULIE: ♪ But somehow

I can see ♪

♪ Just exactly how I'd be

♪ If I loved you

♪ Time and again,

I'd try to say ♪

♪ All I'd want you to know

♪ If I loved you

♪ Words wouldn't come

in an easy way ♪

♪ Round in circles I'd go!

♪ Longin' to tell you,

but afraid and shy ♪

♪ I'd let my golden chances

pass me by! ♪

♪ Soon you'd leave me

♪ Off you'd go

in the mist of day ♪

♪ Never, never to know

♪ How I loved you

♪ If I loved you

>> HASKINS: Ah! [ Applauds ]

>> MUELLER: And I think she ends

it on a, "Oh, God.

I've said too much," you know?

[ Laughter ]

She kind of goes, "Oh, wait.

I mean if I loved you."

One of the things Jack O'Brien

was so helpful with in rehearsal

was with me, and we were talking

about Julie, and he just

kept talking about the

immediacy of her.

She's so kind of, like,

right there.

And it's interesting,

the thing I also love about this

scene, is just how frank they

are with each other.

They're strangers.

And they have so much to risk.

Possibly so much to gain,

but also maybe so much to lose.

But they're just so open with

each other, sort of shockingly

so in the things that they

say to one another.

And then, like we were saying,

this lyric gets introduced

about, "If I love you,"

this idea, and she says what she

thinks it would be like.

And then Billy

takes on that lyric.

And to me it's just that

wonderful moment of, you look at

someone and you go,

"Oh, my God. I'm not alone."

Like, "You think about it the

way I kind of think about it.

Maybe I'm not crazy."

>> GREEN: Well, and that is

really underlined after you

sing your chorus.

We then get more of the operetta

development of the scene,

using, again, many of these same

cells, with one big additional

one, this time mostly from

Billy's point of view.

>> EINHORN: This is actually one

of my favorite parts of the

bench scene, when we get this

unlocking of who Billy is.

It's sort of when we realize

that Billy's actually a poet

inside, and it goes to that

great Hammerstein place where

the imagery becomes about the

sky and the sea and how we're

all meeting together.

But I think it's a really

interesting, very worldly view

for a character that, up to this

point, we've not seen anything

like this out of him.

>> GREEN: Well, let's recall

that it is drawn from a play by

Ferenc Molnár that is very

cosmic and philosophical.

>> EINHORN: Absolutely.

>> GREEN: And beautifully

condensed into, what, this

32-bar section here,

which we'll hear.

>> EINHORN: Yes. Sure.

[ Music plays ]

>> BILLY: ♪ You can't

hear a sound ♪

♪ Not the turn of a leaf

♪ Nor the fall of a wave

hittin' the sand ♪

♪ The tide's creeping up

on the beach like a thief ♪

♪ Afraid to be caught

stealin' the land ♪

♪ On a night light this,

I start to wonder ♪

♪ What life is all about

>> JULIE: ♪ And I always say

two heads are better than one

to figure it out ♪

[ Song ends ]

>> MUELLER: [ Chuckles ]

>> GREEN: So, and we heard you

again cadencing.

>> MUELLER: Here comes Julie and

her cadencing.

>> EINHORN: Exactly.

>> GREEN: Right before this,

we get a figure.

Right before the,

"Ba-da, ba-da, bum, bum."

>> EINHORN: Oh, yeah.

>> GREEN: That becomes

important later.

>> EINHORN: It's the

blossom music, yes.

[ Plays discordant melody ]

>> GREEN: Jumping ahead, we go

through -- Billy has that cell,

and a few more that are also

based on -- and then we get to

the loom theme again, only now

from your point of view,

with a different story

of what love would be...

>> HENRY: Mm-hmm.

>> GREEN: ...and the main

chorus, second chorus

of the song.

So let's hear the final chorus.

>> MUELLER: Sure.

>> BILLY: ♪ But somehow

I can see ♪

♪ Just exactly how I'd be

♪ If I loved you

♪ Time and again

I would try to say ♪

♪ All I'd want you to know

♪ If I loved you

♪ Words wouldn't come

in an easy way ♪

♪ Round in circles I'd go!

♪ Longin' to tell you,

but afraid and shy ♪

♪ I'd let my golden chances

pass me by! ♪

♪ Soon you'd leave me

♪ Off you would go

in the mist of day ♪

♪ Never, never to know

♪ How I loved you

♪ If I loved you

>> GREEN: Wow. And there's --

[ Laughs ]

>> MUELLER: I get to listen to

that every night.

[ Laughter ]

Just stand there and be like...

>> HASKINS: That was so

astonishingly wonderful.

I can't begin to react.

We're just overwhelmed.

>> MUELLER: She's done.

She's like, "Fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa."

>> GREEN: One quick final

question.

Is it possible, can you ever get

tired of singing that?

>> HENRY: No.

>> EINHORN: No, I think

it's the greatest.

>> MUELLER: Maybe physically,

but I don't think [Laughs]

emotionally, no.

>> EINHORN: It's interesting how

many times this song ends up

appearing throughout the show --

in the ballet, and then in the

reprise at the end.

And yet it just seems to

continue to strike this great

emotional chord, pun intended.

>> MUELLER: Yeah, right?

It's this mighty theme

that keeps coming back.

>> EINHORN: Absolutely.

>> MUELLER: And, no, I mean,

for me, as a singer and an

actor, it's such a blessing to

have stuff like this, 'cause you

can continue to dig and find

things and...

And when you get to do something

like this and play off of

someone, and play off of

someone like Josh,

that's half the fun of it.

It's like,

"What's gonna happen tonight?"

>> HENRY: It's different

every night.

>> MUELLER: Yeah.

>> HASKINS: I just want to thank

you all so much for taking

your time to come over here

today and do this.

>> GREEN: And perform tonight.

>> MUELLER: Thank you

for having us.

This was fun.

>> HENRY: Jessie Mueller,

back again.

Thank you so much.

Joshua Henry and Andy Einhorn,

thank you so much.

Jesse Green, thank you so much.

>> GREEN: Thank you, Susan.

>> EINHORN: Thank you.

>> HASKINS: Can't get any

better than that.

Joining me now is my co-host

Jan Simpson of BroadwayRadio.

And we are so happy to be joined

by director George C. Wolfe,

who has helmed the most

remarkable and wonderful

production of

"The Iceman Cometh,"

which is now on Broadway.

George, congratulations

on this production.

>> WOLFE: Thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you.

>> HASKINS: It stars

Denzel Washington

in the lead role.

A wonderful cast you've

assembled.

>> WOLFE: Extraordinary cast of

people.

>> HASKINS: Do you think

everybody out there in our

audience knows this play, or you

have to tell them about it?

>> WOLFE: I'll tell them a

little bit about it.

>> HASKINS: All right.

>> WOLFE: It's set in this bar

that's run by Harry Hope.

It's all these people

live there.

It's set in 1912.

And all these people are waiting

around for Hickey to show up,

because once or twice a year,

he shows up with money, and he

buys drinks for all these

people.

And they're all derelicts and

bums with very limited means.

And they assume that when he

shows up this time, it's going

to be just like it is -- singing

and laughing and jokes, and

being drunk forever and ever.

And then he shows up, and he

decides he's going to save them,

and he's going to save them and

expose them to the lies and the

illusions and the pipe dreams

that have haunted them their

entire lives.

>> HASKINS: How much of this

play do you feel is about

alcoholism, and how much of this

play -- 'cause they're all a

bunch of drunks.

>> WOLFE: Yes.

>> HASKINS: ...and how much of

this play is about people

masking their illusions?

>> WOLFE: I think it's without

question about people masking

their illusions, and the

function that alcohol plays is

that it numbs you from the rage

that you feel inside.

And so what ends up happening

when Hickey shows up and starts

to expose them to themselves,

their fear sets in,

and they stop drinking,

and as a result all these truths

and anger and frustrations

and loss and defeat begins to

come to the surface.

So, to me, the play is,

liquor is the great numbing

impact on your spirit.

But it's really about that

balance of truth and lies,

and what proportion is healthy,

and what proportion

drags you under.

>> SIMPSON: This play is famous

for being very long.

But your production really moves

quite fleetly.

Part of that is your direction,

but part of it is that you made

some cuts.

>> WOLFE: I don't

call them cuts.

I call them snippets.

>> SIMPSON: [ Laughs ] Okay.

>> WOLFE: No, just because I

wanted to create an incredibly

muscular production.

I wanted to create one that had

a very assaultive energy.

Assaultive with comedy,

assaultive with pain,

assaultive with pathos.

A physically very aggressive

production because, once again,

the play begins, and they're

looking for the liquor.

And Hickey shows up, and he

provides them the the liquor,

but they're unsettled, so

everything, every single thing

that is unresolved about them

is coming to the surface.

And when that process is

happening, that's not a casual

process.

It brings out a kind of rawness,

a desperation, an anger and a

rage, and a sense of violation.

And so, to me, that was

a strong clue as to

what the play was about.

And also one of the things

that's really interesting to me,

O'Neill, all of his earlier

work, he was experimenting

with form.

>> HASKINS: Yes.

>> WOLFE: He was doing very

stylized plays.

He was doing very epic plays.

And then there's this assumption

that, therefore, he then matured

and then wrote "Iceman Cometh"

and "Long Day's Journey

Into Night."

And I disagree with that

violently.

I think that every single play

that he ever wrote,

stylistically, is present

in "Iceman Cometh."

So to me, all of those became

really interesting rhythms and

dynamics, which I wanted to

explore and put inside of

"Iceman Cometh."

Not create a

reverential production,

but one that had a vibrancy

and an intensity of the

young man that he was in 1912.

>> HASKINS: When this play first

opened, it was what -- 1946?

>> WOLFE: Yes.

>> SIMPSON: Mm-hmm.

>> HASKINS: It was a failure

in many senses.

And people said, for one thing,

"It's too long and too dark,"

too depressing right after

World War II.

>> WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

>> HASKINS: But now don't you

think it's in sync with our

times very much so?

>> WOLFE: One of the things that

I think is so vital and so

important about the play,

it's, what do you hold on to

when hope appears to be

vanished?

>> HASKINS: Mm-hmm.

>> WOLFE: And we're all asking

those questions.

We're all asking.

And also, as I said earlier,

what degree of truth and lies

do we each need to allow

ourselves to wake up each

morning to go forward?

Because we all do that

balancing act every single

day of our lives.

If there's too much truth, it

can be startling and

overwhelming.

If it's too much lies, we're

disconnected from reality.

>> HASKINS: Now, I have to ask

you all, Denzel,

African-American man playing

this part that was obviously

written for a white man,

as did James Earl Jones.

And that means nothing.

But then in there,

there's the other character --

>> WOLFE: Joe Mott. Yes.

>> HASKINS: Yes. Joe.

...who is being racially

assaulted, and to me, it's just,

"Well, that's the way

it's cast."

But is there any other thinking?

>> WOLFE: Well, there was a very

specific thinking, just in the

sense that, to me, New York,

still to this day, but back

then, is a series of tribes.

And so racial and ethnic slurs

are hurled at each other.

Hickey is showing up with means,

with money.

He is of the world.

Nobody's gonna waste time

attacking him

when he's providing them

with money and liquor.

And also there's an interesting

story that Joe Mott, the

character, tells, played by the

brilliant Michael Potts,

where, when he tried to open up

his saloon, he asked Harry Hope

to sign a letter saying

that he was white.

Now, in that connotation,

he means white in

the sense that "You're gonna

play with us economically.

You're gonna bribe the police

for us, so that therefore

we won't put you out of

business," right?

So, one of the things that I

love about the play, which is

incredibly sophisticated for

O'Neill's thinking -- he's

viewing "white" not as a

definition of race, but as a

means of playing along with the

system -- So, if you give,

you will get -- which is an

incredibly sophisticated --

It gets a big laugh, but an

incredibly sophisticated thought

process when you think about

this character is saying this in

1912, written by a playwright

who wrote it in 1944.

>> HASKINS: Also, how prescient

he was about addiction and

alcoholism, and how it was

going to overtake us.

I mean, obviously it was

bringing people down

when he wrote it.

>> SIMPSON: It certainly

afflicted his family.

>> WOLFE: It's also interesting

that Hickey talks about his

father, and one of the things

that Denzel, we talked a lot

about -- he talks about his

father, but he doesn't mention

the mother, whereas Perry's

story line is nothing but about

his mother.

'Cause I think he was building

up the courage to write

about his mother in

"Long Day's Journey."

>> SIMPSON: Is this your first

O'Neill play?

>> WOLFE: Yes.

>> SIMPSON: Mm. Is O'Neill a

playwright that had

interested you before?

>> WOLFE: Absolutely 100% no.

And now I am completely and

totally in love, because one of

the things that he does so

brilliantly is, when you read

it, you don't realize how

astonishing he's captured

American vernacular,

how astonishing he's captured

New York vernacular.

The rhythm of his language

is so brilliant and smart and

incisive and challenging and

demanding and full of vibrancy

and life and need.

And so I would read it and I

would just go,

"Okay, yeah, I get it.

Yeah, it's hard. It's rough.

Yeah, I get it."

But now you read it, and when

you start to animate it, you

realize how thrilling it is.

It's intimate.

It's vaudevillian. It's epic.

It's surreal. All of that.

And he's playing with all of

these extraordinary rhythms.

So, you know, I went from going,

"Yeah, yeah, yeah. O'Neill."

to "Oh, my God!

Can I go on another date?"

You know what I mean?

He is a great, great

American writer.

>> HASKINS: It truly is

the great American play.

It's now at the Jacobs Theatre.

George C. Wolfe, you've very

justifiably been nominated for a

Tony Award for this, along with

Denzel Washington

and David Morse.

>> WOLFE: And the designers.

Every single designer.

>> HASKINS: Wonderful.

>> WOLFE: Yes.

>> HASKINS: It's wonderful.

All right. Thank you so much,

Jan Simpson.

A pleasure, as always.

Thank you, everyone.

>> WOLFE: Thank you.

>> HASKINS: Our thanks to the

Friends of "Theater Talk"

for their significant

contribution to this production.

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