MetroFocus

FULL EPISODE

MetroFocus: September 21, 2021

We’re taking a look at domestic terrorism from the deadly insurrection at the Capitol to the New Yorker who plotted with Al Qaeda to blow up the Long Island Railroad. Tonight we talk with a woman who interviewed that New Yorker and has spent the past several years investigating what’s driving this extremism around the world. Author and former Pulitzer Prize finalist Carla Power joins us.

AIRED: September 21, 2021 | 0:28:26
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TRANSCRIPT

>>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH

JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE

BY --

>>> GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

MONTHS AFTER THE ATTACK ON THE

U.S. CAPITOL, WE'RE STILL TRYING

TO MAKE SENSE OF WHY PEOPLE TURN

TO EXTREMISM AND HOW WE CAN

DE-RADICALIZE THEM.

A STUDY FOUND THAT THE NUMBER OF

DOE

DOMESTIC TERROR ATTACKS ARE AT

THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN DECADES.

OUR GUEST HAS SPENT SEVERAL

YEARS INVESTIGATING WHAT'S

DRIVING THE EXTREMISM.

ALONG HER JOURNEY, SHE

INTERVIEWED AMONG SO MANY OTHERS

A NEW YORKER, WHO PLOTTED WITH

AL QAEDA TO BLOW UP THE LONG

ISLAND RAILROAD.

THEY ALSO MET WITH 4RLEADERS OF

THE REHADBILITATION MOVEMENTS.

HER FINDINGS ARE PART OF A BOOK.

FOR MORE ON WHAT SHE'S

UNCOVERED, CARLA POWER JOINS US

AS PART OF OUR EXPLORING HATE

INITIATIVE, EXAMINING THE

INTERSECTION OF ANTI-SEMITISM

AND EXTREMISM IN AMERICA.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> LET ME START BY SAYING THIS

IS A MARVELLOUS BOOK, IT'S

COMPELLING, IT'S TROUBLING.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, THE FIRST

QUESTION THAT COMES TO MIND, AS

WITH MOST AUTHORS, IS WHY?

WHAT DROVE YOU TO SAY THIS IS

THE BOOK I WANT TO DO AND NOW IS

THE TIME TO DO IT?

IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, YOU SPENT

A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT

THAT.

GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT PROMPTED

YOU TO GO ON THIS JOURNEY THAT

RESULTED IN THIS BOOK.

>> WELL, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY

INTER

INTERESTED IN WRITING ABOUT

MUSLIM SOCIETY.

MY FIRST BOOK HAD BEEN ABOUT

READING THE KORAN WITH AN

ISLAMIC SCHOLAR.

WHAT I WANTED TO EXPLORE IS HOW

DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU FIND

EMPATHY AND CONNECTION WITH

SOMEBODY WHOSE WORLD VIEWS MIGHT

BE VERY DIFFERENT FROM YOUR OWN?

I FOUND A GREAT DEAL OF COMMON

GROUND WITH THIS VERY

TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE SHEIKH.

HE IS MUSLIM.

I'M JEWISH QUAKER SECULAR.

HE HAD A VERY TRADITIONAL

UPBRINGING.

I DIDN'T.

I'M AMERICAN.

HE IS INDIAN.

AFTERWARDS, I THOUGHT ABOUT

THIS.

I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS

RELATIVELY EASY TO FIND COMMON

GROUND WITH SOMEBODY WHO WAS

BOOKISH AND OPEN AND AN

ACADEMIC.

ALL ALONG, WHEN I HAVE BEEN

WRITING ABOUT ISLAM, WHEN PEOPLE

SAY, YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT

TERRORISM, WHAT ABOUT JIHADISM?

AND I WOULD BAT IT ASIDE.

IT'S A TINY MINORITY, WHICH OF

COURSE, IT IS.

ISLAM DOESN'T -- IT'S NOT

GROUNDED IN ISLAM.

BUT I WOULD KIND OF IGNORE IT.

AND I WOULD KIND OF SAY, I'M NOT

GOING TO DEAL WITH THAT.

SUDDENLY I THOUGHT, WAIT, I

REALLY HAVE TO TURN AND FACE

THIS.

NOT BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT'S

GROUNDED IN ISLAM, PER SE, ANY

MORE THAN ANY OTHER GROUP HAS

POLITICAL VIOLENCE, AND YOU CAN

READ ANY TEXT OR ANY SCRIPTURE

TO FIND POLITICAL VIOLENCE

THERE, BUT BECAUSE I REALLY

NEEDED TO SEE WHETHER I COULD

FIND COMMON GROUND WITH PEOPLE

WHO HAD REALLY SORT OF CROSSED A

LINE IN TERMS OF POLITICAL

VIOLENCE.

IT SEEMED THE TIME, BECAUSE I --

THIS WAS RIGHT AFTER THE

ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

AND I COULD FEEL MY OWN COUNTRY

BECOMING RADICALIZED.

I COULD FEEL MYSELF BECOMING

RADICALIZED.

IN THE SENSE THAT I WAS FEELING

LESS WILLING TO LISTEN TO OTHER

PEOPLE'S WORLD VIEWS.

AND HAD A LOT OF ANGER AND A LOT

OF INTOLERANCE IN SOME WAYS.

SO THIS SEEMED THE BOOK TO WRITE

AT THE TIME.

>> AS I MENTIONED IN THE

INTRODUCTION, YOU TALKED SO SUCH

A WIDE ARRAY OF PEOPLE.

AND YOU START THE BOOK WITH

CONVERSATIONS WITH SEVERAL

WOMEN, MOTHERS OF PEOPLE WHO

HAVE TURNED TO EXTREMISM.

WHY DID YOU FEEL THAT THAT WAS

THE RIGHT WAY TO BEGIN THIS

CONVERSATION IN THIS BOOK?

>> WELL, BECAUSE MONSTERS

GENERALLY DON'T HAVE MOTHERS.

I WAS STARTING FROM THE

STANDPOINT -- I WANTED TO CHIP

AWAY AT THIS VERY FLAT, UN

UN-NUANCED NOTION OF WHAT THE

ISLAMIC TERRORIST WAS.

THE MUGSHOTS WE SEE IN THE

HEADLINES DON'T REPRESENT THIS.

I WANTED TO LOOK AT IT CLOSELY.

THERE IS NOTHING TO HUMANIZE

SOMEONE MORE THAN A PARENT AND A

MOTHER.

IT WAS PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE

AND NORTH AMERICA WHERE I

STARTED MY JOURNEY, IT WAS THE

MOTHERS WHO WERE SPEAKING OUT.

IT WASN'T THE FATHERS.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS?

>> I THINK -- I THINK WHEN I

TALKED TO MOTHERS, THEY SAID, MY

HUSBAND JUST WANTS TO FORGET.

HE WANTS TO -- NOT TO FORGET BUT

TO CRAWL INTO HIS OWN SHELL.

BUT THE MOTHERS WERE REALLY

GALVANIZED TO REACH OUT TO EACH

OTHER, TO NETWORK, TO TRY TO

PREVENT OTHER MOTHERS HAVING

THEIR CHILDREN GO OVERSEAS.

THEY WERE TRAINING AS COUNSELORS

AND SO ON.

THEY WERE SPEAKING TO THE PRESS.

ON A VERY PRACTICAL LEVEL, I

COULD GET TO THEM.

VERY FEW FATHERS WERE SPEAKING

OPENLY TO THE PRESS AT THE TIME

THAT I STARTED THIS BOOK.

AND I THINK MOTHERS WANTED TO

BREAK THE SILENCE AROUND THE

SHAME OF HAVING A CHILD WHO, IN

THESE PARTICULAR CASES, WENT OFF

TO JOIN THE ISLAMIC STATE.

>> WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE

MOTHERS, WHAT WERE -- WERE YOU

SURPRISED AT ALL BY THE ANSWERS

THEY GAVE YOU AS TO WHY?

THE WHY QUESTION.

WHY WOULD YOUR SON DO THIS?

WHAT SORT OF RESPONSES DID YOU

GET FROM THEM?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, I WENT UP -- THE FIRST

MOTHER I TALKED TO IN NORTH

ENGLAND, I WAS EXPECTING -- I

WAS LIKE, WHAT SORT OF KID COULD

YOU POSSIBLY HAVE, THINKING THE

PEOPLE WE SEE ON THE NEWS.

IT TURNS OUT THAT HER SON WAS

ACTUALLY SORT OF ONE OF NATURE'S

INNOCENCE IN HER TELLING OF IT.

I SHOULD ADD, YOU KNOW JOURNAL

IS

JOURNALISTICALLY, MOTHERS ARE

NOT GOING TO SEE THEIR CHILDREN

AS OTHERS WOULD SEE THEM.

THERE'S THAT GREAT QUOTE FROM AL

CAPONE'S MOTHER ON HER DEATH BED

WHEN SHE WAS LIKE, AL, HE IS A

GOOD BOY, REALLY, SORT OF THING.

I DID HAVE TO BE -- I HAD TO USE

MY JOURNALISTIC LENS.

IN HER TELLING, HE REALLY WAS

QUITE INNOCENT.

THE FIRST THING I SAW WAS AROUND

HER NECK WAS AN ETHICALLY

SOURCED DIAMOND THAT HE HAD

BOUGHT HER AS A PRESENT BEFORE

HE LEFT FOR SYRIA.

HE WOULD COME IN AND KISS HER

EVERY NIGHT.

HE WOULD CALL IF HE WAS TEN

MINUTES LATE.

WHEN HE GOT OUT TO SYRIA, ONE OF

THEIR PHONE CONVERSATIONS WAS

HIM ASKING HER PERMISSION THAT

HE COULD RIDE MISS COMMANDER'S

MOTORBIKE, BECAUSE HE WAS

NERVOUS THAT SHE WOULD NOT GIVE

PERMISSION.

>> I GOTTA TELL YOU, AS I'M

READING THIS, THE JUXTAPOSITION

OF THE TWO JUST WAS PUZZLING.

AGAIN, SOMEBODY KISSIING HIS

MOTHER GOOD NIGHT.

WE TEND TO THINK OF THEM AS

MONSTERS.

AND YET THE DEPICTION FROM A

MOTHER, THAT THIS -- THERE'S A

DISCONNECT THERE.

>> I THINK THAT THAT IS -- COMES

OUT IN SOME WAYS IN OUR FRAMING

OF WHAT THE JIHAD TERRORIST IS

FIGHTING FOR.

HE BECAME ENAMORED OF THE

ISLAMIC STATE AND VERY UPSET OF

SEEING IMAGES OF CHILDREN IN

SYRIA BEING BOMBED.

WANTED TO GO OUT TO HELP THE

KIDS AND REALLY FELT THAT THAT

WAS IMPORTANT.

IT WASN'T -- AMERICANS FRAME IT

AS THEY ALL HATE US.

WHY DO THEY HATE US?

AND SO ON.

INSTEAD -- IN OTHER PLACES, IT

WAS A SENSE THAT PEOPLE WENT OUT

TO WANT TO HELP AS ALMOST -- NOT

NECESSARILY AS FIGHTERS.

ALTHOUGH, SOME OF THE PEOPLE

REALLY WANTED TO FIGHT.

BUT THERE WAS A SENSE THAT THERE

WAS A HUGH MANITARIAN CRISIS GO

ON.

AND HE WANTED TO GO OUT AND

HELP.

HE ENDED UP ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> AGAIN, SO MANY COMPELLING

STORIES HERE.

I DO WANT TO GET TO, IN A

MOMENT, TO WHY THEY HATE US.

BASED UPON THINGS WE ARE DOING,

ESPECIALLY DRONES.

I WANT TO TOUCH BASE ON -- IN

THE INTRODUCTION I MENTIONED

THAT A YOUNG MAN FROM QUEENS AND

DECIDE

DECIDES HE WANTS TO GO OVER

THERE AND IS OFFERING UP TO HIS

COMMANDER OF THINGS TO DO.

HE COMES UP WITH THE IDEA OF

BOMBING THE LONG ISLAND

RAILROAD, PERHAPS IN A TUNNEL.

GI

GIVE US A QUICK PICTURE OF WHO

THIS YOUNG MAN WAS AND HOW THAT

OCCURRED FOR HIM.

>> BRYANT NEIL WAS RAISED IN

LONG ISLAND INITIALLY.

AFTER 9/11, SIGNED UP AND JOINED

THE ARMY, JOINED THE U.S. ARMY

IN A PATRIOTIC ENTHUSIASM.

HE LATER DROPPED OUT AND

EMBRACED ISLAM.

WAS SORT OF BOUNCING AROUND IN

VARIOUS JOBS.

AND DECIDED TO PUT HIS MONEY

WHERE HIS MOUTH WAS.

HE WAS REALLY DISTURBED ABOUT

OUR INVASIONS OF IRAQ AND

AFGHANISTAN AND DECIDED -- GOT

HIMSELF TO PAKISTAN AND JOINED

UP, FIRST ONE GROUP AND THEN

ANOTHER GROUP, WHOSE NAME HE

DIDN'T KNOW.

IT TURNED OUT TO BE AL QAEDA.

FOR A WHILE, I THINK THE FBI

CALLED HIM THE FOREST GUMP OF

JIHAD.

PARTLY, BECAUSE HE WAS THE

EARLIEST AMERICAN RECRUIT.

HE WAS CERTAINLY, AS HE PUT

IT -- THEY WERE USING ME LIKE A

MASCOT.

SO I THINK HE GOT INTO HIGH

LEVEL MEETINGS QUITE EASILY.

YEAH, AFTER WITNESSING A --

WELL, NOT WITNESSING A DRONE

STRIKE, BUT AFTER VISITING AN

ORPHANAGE IN PAKISTAN AND LATER

AN AMERICAN DRONE STRIKE

REPORTEDLY DESTROYED THAT

ORPHANAGE -- I CAN'T CONFIRM THE

ORPHANAGE WAS DESTROYED.

BRYANT BELIEVED IT.

HE GOT VERY ANGRY.

HE DECIDED TO TALK TO A

COMMANDER AND STARTED SKETCHING

OUT HOW TO BOMB THE LONG ISLAND

RAILROAD.

HE HAD TAKEN MANY TIMES IN HIS

LIFE.

HE DREW IN THE DIRT WHERE ALL

THE TUNNELS CONVERGE.

THE COMMANDER SAID, THIS COULD

REALLY HURT NEW YORK CITY'S

ECONOMY.

THAT'S THE POWER OF SOMETHING

LIKE THIS.

IT NEVER WENT FURTHER THAN THAT,

BECAUSE HE WAS PICKED UP PRETTY

SOON AFTERWARDS.

BROUGHT BACK TO THE STATES.

>> I THINK -- I WANT TO URGE

PEOPLE FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS

TO GET THIS BOOK AND READ IT.

BUT HIS STORY, WHAT HAPPENS

AFTERWARDS -- HE FLIPS AND

STARTS COOPERATING TO HIM AND

WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM AFTER THIS

IS EQUALLY COMPELLING FOR

PEOPLE.

LET ME COME BACK TO THE DRONES

THAT YOU MENTIONED, THE DRONE

STRIKES.

YOU TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE

IDEA OF BLOW BACK.

WE HAVE HEARD THAT TALKED ABOUT,

GOING BACK DECADES IN TERMS OF

U.S. INVOLVEMENT ABROAD AND OUR

CONDUCT AND ACTIONS AND THE

REACTION TO THAT, THE BLOW BACK

REACTION.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT

IS THE IDEA OF THE USE OF

DRONES.

I THINK THERE'S A LINE WHERE

ESSENTIALLY IT TALKS ABOUT THE

IDEA THAT RATHER THAN

ERADICATING TERRORISTS, DRONES

ARE IN SOME WAYS CREATING

TERRORISTS.

TAL

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, I MEAN, I WAS

INTERESTING IN DRONES INITIALLY

AS A WRITER ALMOST BECAUSE THEY

SEEM TO ME TO BE THIS METAPHOR

FOR HOW WE WEREN'T CONNECTING

WITH SITUATIONS ON THE GROUND.

THEY ARE PILOTED OUT FROM A

DESERT OUTSIDE OF LAS VEGAS.

PEOPLE ARE VERY WELL TRAINED,

BUT THEY ARE HOWEVER MANY

THOUSAND MILES AWAY.

THEY REALLY -- YOU EITHER BOMB

OR YOU GO HOME.

THERE'S THIS KIND OF BINARY

SITUATION.

IT'S NOT ENGAGEMENT IN THE OLD

SENSE OF THE TERM.

MANY, MANY PEOPLE HAVE --

INCLUDING BOTH HAWKISH FOLKS AND

CONSERVATIVES HAVE POINTED OUT

THAT THESE HAVE ACTUALLY --

YOU'VE GOT A DIPLOMAT IN YEMEN

WHO RECKONED THAT WITH EVERY

DRONE STRIKE IN YEMEN, YOU

CREATED 50 TO 60 NEW MILITANTS,

BECAUSE YOU HIT SOMEBODY.

EVEN IF YOU HIT YOUR TARGET,

THERE WILL BE THEIR KINFOLK,

FAMILY, TRIBE.

SUDDENLY, YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE

BUNCH OF NEW PEOPLE WHO ARE

SYMPATHETIC TO THE CAUSE.

SOMETHING LIKE WE SAW A COUPLE

OF WEEKS AGO AFTER WE WITHDREW

FROM AFGHANISTAN WHERE A DRONE

STRIKE KILLED I BELIEVE IT WAS

TEN MEMBERS OF A FAMILY.

MOST OF THEM UNDER 18 YEARS OF

AGE.

LITTLE KIDS.

WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR OUR

REPUTATION ABROAD?

SO I WAS INTERESTED.

IN BRYANT'S CASE, OF COURSE, THE

DRONE WAS WHAT MADE HIM AN

EXAMPLE, I THOUGHT, BLOW BACK.

BECAUSE SUDDENLY THEN HE WAS

PLANNING THIS REALLY DANGEROUS

PLOT.

>> ONCE AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING

WITH CARLA POWER,THE AUTHOR OF

A BOOK.

PEOPLE THINK I'M SAYING HOMELAND

SECURITY.

I'M NOT.

HOME L, LAND, SECURITY.

WHY BREAK UP THE WORDS?

>> IT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO SAY,

I'VE GOT TO SAY.

I LOVED THE TITLE, BUT I HAVE

NOT PRACTICED SAYING IT.

I COMMEND YOU.

I WANTED TO TAKE BACK THIS

PHRASE THAT WE HAVE ALL LIVED

WITH SINCE 9/11, SINCE SHORTLY

AFTER 9/11.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.

KIND OF IN THE INTEREST OF

MAKING US THINK ABOUT THE ROOT

CAUSES OF TERRORISM AND

EXTREMISM, I WANTED TO BREAK IT

UP.

HOME IS -- I WANTED TO START AT

HOME AND THINK ABOUT THESE YOUNG

PEOPLE WHO JOIN MILITANT GROUPS

AND THINK ABOUT WHAT -- HOW THEY

MIGHT BE PROPELLED BECAUSE OF

HOME.

LAND IS ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT.

WHEN YOU STATISTICALLY AT WHY

TERRORIST ATTACKS OCCUR, ROBERT

PAPE HAS DONE SOME AMAZING WORK

OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO

WHERE HE LOOKED AT SUICIDE

BOMBERS BETWEEN 1980 AND 2005, I

THINK.

HE FOUND THAT 95% OF TERROR --

OF SUICIDE BOMBINGS WERE THERE

NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE MUSLIM

OR POOR, BECAUSE THEY WERE

DRIVEN TO THIS OR PART OF AL

QAEDA.

IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE LIVING

IN LANDS THAT WERE OCCUPIED BY

OTHERS.

LAND AND THAT BEING A REALLY

IMPORTANT MOTIVATOR, WHETHER WHY

YOU LAND IS TORN BY CIVIL WAR OR

OCCUPATION, IS ANOTHER SORT OF

PHRASE ONCE YOU START BREAKING

IT UP.

SECURITY AT THE END OF THE BOOK.

I WANT US TO THINK ABOUT WHAT

REAL SECURITY IS, WHAT SECURITY

LOOKS LIKE AND HOW WE CAN

GENUINELY THINK ABOUT NEW WAYS

TO MAKE US SAFER WITHOUT

RESORTING TO SOME OF THE SAME

MISTAKES WE MADE POST 9/11.

>> I WANT TO GET IN A MOMENT TO

WHAT YOU FOUND IN TERMS OF THE

VARIOUS APPROACHES THAT OTHER

COUNTRIES WERE TAKING, U.S. WERE

TAKING TO THIS NOTION OF DE

DE-RADICALIZATION.

THIS IS SOMETHING YOU TWEETED

OUT.

YOU TALK ABOUT DOMESTIC

TERRORISTS ARE TELLING YOU

SOMETHING ABOUT THE STATE OF

YOUR NATION.

YOU SAY, DON'T CONDONE, DON'T

EXCUSE, DO WONDER WHY THEY DO

WHAT THEY DO.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS THEN, WHAT

DO YOU THINK WE ARE SEEING HERE

IN TERMS OF DMOMESTIC TERRORIST,

WHITE NATIONALISTS?

WHAT ARE THEY SAYING ABOUT THE

STATE OF OUR COUNTRY?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK A RANGE

OF THINGS.

I DON'T -- I THINK IT'S REALLY

IMPORTANT TO -- THE FOLKS AT THE

CAPITOL -- THERE WERE DIFFERENT

GROUPS.

SOME HARD CORE, SOME PEOPLE WHO

WERE ALONG FOR A VARIETY OF

DIFFERENT REASONS.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS A

BREAKDOWN OF AUTHORITY AND A

BREAKDOWN OF OUR FAITH IN OUR

INSTITUTIONS.

COUPLE THAT WITH THE INFORMATION

SILOS WE HAVE ALL BEEN SUBJECTED

TO BECAUSE OF I'LLALGORITHMS.

WE'RE NOT TRYING TO REACH ACROSS

THE DIVIDE.

VERY CANNY POLITICAL AND OTHER

KINDS OF LEADERS HAVE REALLY

HELPED KIND OF STOKE HATRED, I

THINK.

AND I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD LOOK

TO THE BREAKDOWN OF JOBS AND

SECURITY AND OF COMMUNITY.

I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE HOST OF

THINGS THAT THE RISE OF

EXTREMISM IN OUR COUNTRY ARE

POINTING TO.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO UNFOLD

OVER THE NEXT -- SADLY, ITS

EARLY DAYS YET.

>> LET ME ASK YOU TO TOUCH

BASE -- WE HAVE FIVE MINUTES

LEFT IN THE CONVERSATION HERE.

YOU SPEND A GOOD DEAL OF TIME IN

THE BOOK -- IT'S VERY

COMPELLING.

AND THOUGHT PROVOKING.

TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENT

APPROACHES WE SEE TOWARDS DE

DE-RADICALIZATION.

YOU VISITED SEVERAL OTHER

NATIONS.

TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IN

TERMS OF COMPARATIVE APPROACHES

HERE.

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE

COMPARATIVE APPROACHES.

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

SOME OF THE MOST INTERESTING

APPROACHES COME OUT OF PLACES

WITH REALLY STRONG SAFETY NETS.

I WENT TO DENMARK WHERE THERE IS

THIS INCREDIBLY WELL-FUNDED --

BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS GREAT

SOCIAL SAFETY NET -- PROGRAM

WHERE POLICE AND DETECTIVES HELP

PEOPLE COMING BACK FROM THE

ISLAMIC STATE OR OTHER PEOPLE AT

RISK OF BECOMING JIHADI, THEY

SORT OF, KIND OF SMOTHER THEM

WITH LOVE AND GIVE THEM

COUNSELORS AND HELP THEM FIND

APARTMENTS AND JOBS AND SHRINKS

AND KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING.

CRITICS HAVE CALLED IT HUG A

TERRORIST PROGRAM.

THAT HAS SEEMED TO WORK PRETTY

WELL FOR THE CITY OF OUR HOST,

WHICH IS ONE CITY IN DENMARK.

IT WAS INTERESTING GOING TO

MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES WHERE

THERE WASN'T THE ELEMENT OF

ISLAMAPHOBIA.

I WENT TO INDONESIA, WHERE

THERE'S A COTTAGE INDUSTRY OF

NOT FOR PROFITS HELPING FORMER

JIHADIS.

YOU GET PEOPLE WHO INVITE THEM

OVER TO STATE WITH THEM SO THEY

CAN HELP THEM GET BACK ON THEIR

FEET AFTER THEY HAVE SERVED

THEIR PRISON TERMS.

THERE ARE PROGRAMS TO GIVE THE

WIVES OF THESE JIHADIS MONEY TO

START BUSINESSES.

THEY REALIZE THAT THERE'S

ECONOMIC STRAIN THERE.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF REALLY

GOOD KIND OF SURROUND SOUND

PROGRAMS.

SAUDI ARABIA, FOR EXAMPLE --

ALTHOUGH, PEOPLE HAVE A LOT OF

PROBLEMS WITH IT FOR A VARIETY

OF REASONS.

SAUDI ARABIA HAS THIS KIND OF

ELEGANT CAMP THAT FORMER JIHADIS

GET SENT TO.

THEY ARE GIVEN MONEY FOR CARS

AND TO HAVE WEDDINGS AND SO ON.

IT'S A VERY SORT OF TOP DOWN

APPROACH.

THAT IS WHY -- I SORT OF CAME

OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE THINKING,

THE REALLY, REALLY GOOD PROGRAMS

ARE VERY LOCAL.

THEY'RE NOT GOVERNMENT SAYING,

THIS IS HOW IT WILL BE AND THIS

IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO

DE-RADICALIZE TO.

THAT GETS, IN MY MIND, SORT OF

CREEPILY CLOSE TO BRAINWASHING.

I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS

THAT WE HAVEN'T REALLY DEVELOPED

DE-RADICALIZATION PROGRAMS.

>> I HAVE A LITTLE LESS THAN

HALF A MINUTE.

WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?

>> WELL, WE NEED TO -- WE HAVE

THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT TO

BELIEVE.

WE DO, HOWEVER, NEED TO STOP

PEOPLE GETTING INTO VIOLENT

ACTIVITY.

WE NEED TO STOP HATRED.

THERE ARE VERY SMALL -- THERE

ARE A FEW -- THERE'S EXIT USA

FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN IN WHITE

SUE

SUPREMACIST MOVEMENTS.

THERE ARE A COUPLE.

WE ARE VERY THIN ON THE GROUND.

THE ONLY DE-RADICALIZATION

PROGRAM I FOUND BACK A COUPLE

YEARS AGO WAS IN MINNESOTA.

IT HAD EXACTLY ONE PERSON IN IT.

IT WAS SORT OF ENTREPRENEURIAL

AND FLY BY THE SEAT OF THEIR

PANTS.

THEY WERE MAKING IT UP AS THEY

WENT ALONG.

IT WORKED.

BECAUSE I THINK WE DO HAVE THIS

FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND FREEDOM OF

RELIGION, PEOPLE ARE VERY LOATH

TO DICTATE WHAT YOU WILL

BELIEVE.

>> CARLA, ONCE AGAIN, IT'S RIGHT

NOW -- IT'S THOUGHT PROVOKING

AND COMPELLING AND VERY TIMELY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING

TIME WITH US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH.

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