Articulate

S8 E1 | CLIP

The Purposeful Life of Joyce Carol Oates

Despite her mastery of the written word, Joyce Carol Oates is skeptical about how well conversation can express the complexities of thought and emotions.

AIRED: October 08, 2021 | 0:09:02
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TRANSCRIPT

(gentle music)

(piano music)

(piano music)

Now in her mid eighties,

Joyce Carol Oates may well have become

the grand elder of American letters.

She's been extraordinarily prodigious

and her output has been, by and large, exemplary.

This she says is because

she has wholly immersed her entire self, her very being,

into the practice of writing.

- I don't think of myself as unusual.

I mean, I don't think about myself that much.

If I'm working on a short story,

I'm not thinking about my own fluency, I'm just thinking,

I'm trying to figure out how we get from here to here

and transcribing some sort of emotional experience.

(hand slaps)

I'm thinking about a problem.

I have to figure out the tone of a voice.

I have to figure out whether this is realism or surrealism.

I have to figure out whether the best way to express it

is through a lot of dialogue and drama

or whether it should be more like a lyric description.

These are all very specific to a task.

- [Jim] And this dedication to specific tasks

has yielded much acclaim.

A National Book Award in 1970 for her iconic novel "Them",

a PEN/Malamud Award for excellence in short fiction,

and in 2010 a National Humanities Medal.

Her dedication to craft is matched

by her commitment to putting in the work.

- So, I always think if I have an hour of my life,

am I just gonna waste it

or shall I try at least to work out a story.

So, I try to make use of my time

because otherwise it would just fritter away.

We have 24 hours in a day

and what use will we make of it?

So, probably some of us inherit a work ethic

from our parents

or from a background where people kept busy.

And there are other people who don't work

and don't see any particular moral principle in work.

- [Jim] Yet despite this dedication to her craft

and her extraordinary capacity with words,

she has little belief in the spoken word

to express the full scope and depth of the human experience.

- Life is beyond our ability to comprehend

and language doesn't really encompass it.

So, anything we say about life and death

is usually somewhat banal.

It's not adequate.

- But you're very good with language.

- Well, if I work on something,

I can write a poem that might express

a complex emotion, an experience,

but I'm probably not likely just to say that

in a casual way.

Art really is dependent upon thinking and structure.

And just generally speaking I don't think language

is adequate to talk about profound things.

There's almost nothing that doesn't sound

banal and stereotypical.

But you know, if you're listening to the music of Wagner,

you're sort of getting the sense

of the tragedy and passion of life

and to talk about it in ordinary language

is just really to reduce it I think.

(gentle piano music)

- [Jim] Joyce Carol Oates

has not only outlived many of her literary contemporaries,

she's also been twice widowed.

She wrote about the loss of her first husband of 47 years,

Raymond J. Smith, in an acclaimed memoir, "A Widow's Story".

Her second husband, Charles Gross,

an emeritus professor of psychology at Princeton,

died in 2019 a decade into their marriage.

Losing these men, her closest confidants,

is not something she's found easy peace with.

- You mentioned that I've lost two husbands, so I'm a widow,

and by contrast with what a widow feels,

most things are pretty trivial.

But I think losing people, that's the blow.

It is losing people who are gone.

That's what is so upsetting.

So, I mean, it comes with getting older,

but that's not the main thing.

If you have your health, then that's all that matters.

But at a certain point, as Phillip Roth said,

his address book is mostly just people crossed out.

- [Jim] Today Oates continues to write prodigiously

and in long hand and look after her own health,

walking or running daily.

And many of her ideas, she says,

are finessed when she's in motion.

- Running will help you with your writing

if you're trying to think of some,

probably with anything in life,

where you're trying to work out some problem,

the running is very helpful.

I run up up a hill.

It's about a mile away or so, two miles,

probably about a two-mile run, and I usually get some ideas.

(gentle piano music)

- [Jim] And this processing of ideas,

this working out of problems,

has produced an extraordinary body of work,

short stories, essays, memoirs, and criticism,

and under her own and various pseudonyms,

at best guess 58 novels.

- Well, it's one word at a time.

(Joyce laughs)

I mean, I never set out to write 58 novels.

I'm not even sure that I have written 58 novels.

I mean, it's like, how many dreams have you had?

Each night you have dreams and each dream is very intense.

Each dream is very meaningful,

can be emotionally very powerful, but then it sort of ends.

You don't remember your dreams from 1975,

(Joyce laughs)

but they were important then.

So, the intensity of the work is what's compelling.

It's intense and fascinating.

- [Jim] And the results of the work

have been compelling, intense, and fascinating

for multiple generations of readers and students

who Oates has been connected with

through her teaching at NYU, Rutgers, and Princeton.

She feels that those who are now coming into adulthood

face far deeper, more daunting problems

than those who came before.

- Well, this generation, they are so stricken

with, to call it a problem is an understatement,

the phenomenon of climate change and global warming

and the deterioration of the environment.

That's a strong theme in 18 and 19-year-olds.

Well, my students are very serious.

They're much more, probably more concerned

about the environment maybe than their own parents

or grandparents.

I mean, our species homo sapiens, has done pretty well,

but we are very vulnerable and we could just be wiped out.

Looking into the future is something that the young people

do out of necessity.

- [Jim] Joyce Carol Oates has had an extraordinary career,

but she's not done yet.

She has still much to say

and will not be putting away her proverbial quill

anytime soon.

- That's why retirement's so hard for people.

Many people, especially men, cannot do with retirement

because they're suddenly of no use.

And even though they don't care about making money,

they already have enough money,

but there's something about

the activity of being of use in the world

is definitely very positive, I think.

- Purpose, purpose.

- Purpose and use, yeah.

(gentle orchestral music)

(upbeat violin music)

- [Announcer] Articulate, with Jim Kotter,

is made possible with generous funding

from the Neubauer Family Foundation.

(upbeat electronic music)

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